IRC log started Mon Jun 5 00:00:00 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0605 -:- NetSplit: varley.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [12:33am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [varley.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: varley.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: varley.openprojects.net split from fastlane.openprojects.net [01:10am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [varley.openprojects.net] what a night for irc 01:20am -:- Netjoined: varley.openprojects.net fastlane.openprojects.net -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes * coreyr/#tunes sighs. -:- SignOff coreyr: #TUNES (blah) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is lewis.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- lewis.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(5)] 1% -:- [global users on irc(425)] 45% -:- [invisible users on irc(523)] 55% -:- [ircops on irc(17)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(948)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(28)] (avg. 33 users per server) -:- [total channels created(364)] (avg. 2 users per channel) !lewis.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 12 (10 clients) !lewis.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 1 ca 1(2) ft 14(14). -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- [Users(#tunes:4)] [ TUNES ] [ Fare ] [ Kyle_L ] [ I440r ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.148 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- abi [abi@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by lewis.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Connection refused -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from carter.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is carter.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from carter.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from carter.openprojects.net) -:- carter.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(116)] 12% -:- [global users on irc(424)] 45% -:- [invisible users on irc(523)] 55% -:- [ircops on irc(16)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(947)] -:- [unknown connections(1)] -:- [total servers on irc(28)] (avg. 33 users per server) -:- [total channels created(370)] (avg. 2 users per channel) !carter.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 174 (173 clients) !carter.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Tunes WebDB at http://diktuon.arrow.cx/ -:- topic set by hcf [Sun Jun 4 20:13:55 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:5)] [ TUNES ] [ abi ] [ I440r ] [ Kyle_L ] [ Fare ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 3.910 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff I440r: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- I440r [mark4@purplecoder.com] has joined #tunes -:- pip` [binkness@m3hOs2n117.midsouth.rr.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff pip`: #TUNES (Ping timeout for pip`[m3hOs2n117.midsouth.rr.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-20.s20.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-9-117.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp10.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Tunes WebDB at http://diktuon.arrow.cx/ -:- smklsmkl [sami@ppp27.dial-in.verkkotieto.fi] has joined #tunes -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn186.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes gah 12:20pm -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (brb) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn186.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- water [water@tnt-9-248.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- le_mort [morton@AC9CCB6C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #tunes . -:- SignOff le_mort: #TUNES (Read error to le_mort[AC9CCB6C.ipt.aol.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z) 01:40pm bbl -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) 02:20pm -:- tcn [Tom@cci-209150250139.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4-2000 -- Accept no limitations) -:- tcn [Tom@cci-209150250139.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes tcn! hey whoops, didn't mean to join #tune that's unforgivable! so, how's life? 04:20pm life's a bitch. then, you die. or you use irix... which is very close to death ah, I see :) what's worse, irix or NT? different kind of point and drool pseudo-OS. which ought to be called OT i've only used irix remotely, and illegitimately :) nice thing about it was the lack of security :) nice for whom? the intruder, heh heh probably nice for the workers too.. gave them a break from whatever crap they were working on some of 'em were for cartography.. most boring job in the worl a friend of mine was doing that it really sucks when you start dreaming about it 04:30pm -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp10.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp208.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-151.s151.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smklsmkl: #TUNES (back tomorrow ...) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- sniper- [sniper@206.228.97.242] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff sniper-: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Maximus4 [asdasd@node-64-248-41-204.dslspeed.zyan.com] has joined #tunes -:- Maximus4 [asdasd@node-64-248-41-204.dslspeed.zyan.com] has left #tunes [] -:- tcn [Tom@cci-209150250139.clarityconnect.net] has left #tunes [] -:- water [water@tnt-9-32.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hey all eih: you there? 06:20pm -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-177.s177.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-204-134-1.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes hcf: what was that article you picked up on recently that was posted to comp.os.misc? about what? something proposing a standard for os components it mentioned tunes, among other things 08:10pm oh, i'l refind should probably hand that to terralthra url: http://pages.cthome.net/iact/IQN/8.html thread subject'd: standardi & modular OS yeah thx hcf np 08:20pm ok well i figure that if we stick with the self model as close as possible, we won't be going to far out on a limb that we'll get stuck in semanitcs arguments however... there are still some issues that i want to know we agree on i don't really care what we agree on, as long as it works and doesn't cause too many problems and (most importantly) we agree so.... what's left of the slate ideas that you still find troublesome? (or not specified well enough) hmm... e.g. cloning or literals or .... ? so we agree to use the self model of objects? i.e. clone is shallow copy that no longer is subject to updates from the original? sure, that can be a primitive ok i thought that was a deep copy, iirc oh wait let's make sure self could be deep copy :) damn confusing terms do you mean self as in the pseudo variable or self the language? s/could/could not -:- SignOff I440r: #TUNES (Read error to I440r[purplecoder.com]: EOF from client) self as in the language, i assume, would most likely be cloning-as-shallow-copy 08:50pm hm we are still considering all objects to be immutable by default, yes? sure, but mutable objects would sure help in making the compiler :) i know mutation has to occur always in some way at the very least, code execution always modifies the enclosing namespace by creating nameless slots which are the expressions but back to "clone" also, are immutable objects shallowly-immutable or deeply-immutable? :) i'd say deeply as in recursively immutable which means you'll be pretending that this is so most of the time abi: linear naming? linear naming is explained at ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/hb/hbaker/Use1Var.html have you read that? yes? no? reading it :) ok -:- mark4 [mark4@purplecoder.com] has joined #tunes 09:00pm i should also give you the blue book url (for purposes of mobius stuff) http://users.ipa.net/~dwighth/smalltalk/bluebook/bluebook_imp_toc.html abi: bluebook bluebook is Smalltalk-80: The Language and Its Implementation at http://users.ipa.net/~dwighth/smalltalk/bluebook/ there you go :) now we just (cough) have to use the best of this along with the best of lisp systems in a clean way hmmm 09:10pm yes? nothing -:- Terralthra [terralthra@c741758-c.plstn1.sfba.home.com] has joined #tunes so what do you think cloning should be, primitively? -:- Terralthra [terralthra@c741758-c.plstn1.sfba.home.com] has left #tunes [] and what of the parent slot? eh? oh well cloning, i think, should be a shallow copy why? because its simple to understand :) gah yeah i suppose that's true i'm used to thinking in deep-copy terms oh well let's see.... literals..... "foo" should be the name of the object within the string namespace and i don't mean that i quoted foo above i mean that the quotes should be part of the name, most likely well, "foo" would be the representation presented by the interface right in the crudest sense it could even map to a list of character objects :) but to keep it uniform, it should be the name of the object picked within the string namespace the name should be dynamically-generated from specification of the object for example "foo" is the object made when you make a new object within the string namespace that's empty and then you add the characters in succession of course the implementation is much more direct iow, "foo" is a special construction syntax for string objects :) pretty much, but it's directly a naming convention i want to allow "foo bar" not just lisp symbols "foo" is not a symbol 09:20pm yeah it's a name but i mean about whitespace rmm? lisp-can't-use-whitespaces-for-ascii-names-of-objects whereas i'd like "foo bar" to be able to name a single object rmm, i don't know if i necessarily agree with how you're considering strings :) this is strictly about generality "foo bar" could be a .gif image or a sequence of them i'm not stopping at whitespaces well, are you saying that 'foo bar' should be a selector into the string namespace? yes that doesn't make intuitive sense :) i know it only applies when you actually access that namespace, not in all cases like when ":" inherits from Strings so it can get strings for its object's result if you want to put this generality off until later, i'm fine with that in my mind, 'foo" would be a short-hand for: ((/String clone) (append (Char : /Char/F)) (append (Char : /Char/O)) (append (Char : /Char/O))) because i know you desperately want to parse ASCII for simplicity and familiarity or what not :) yep now, it doesn't necessarily make sense that "foo" is a member of the /String namespace :) so you grok um no btw, the first part of that expression should not be cloning the surrounding namespace anyway well... the point of having "foo" in Strings is that you can base the equational behavior of it on the fact that it lies in Strings to what benefit? :) that way you can have strings that have no single determined value even though you have information about them and their value can be determined using constraint addition 09:30pm s/addition/compilation or resolution/ bah whatever i'm still losing track of why that is particularly necessary... maybe i'm still suck on the idea of a more Self-like object model :) how about regular expressions? what about them? those are abstract patterns of strings they can resolve into infinite numbers of strings... they can't be anything but strings but they represent constraints over what kind of string you want but why does this necessitate all Strings be *in* /String :) it doesn't in order to be *expedient* :) i'm saying it's *useful* besides, it means very little to the implementation other than to know what's a string and not to list String's slots except lazily ;) btw this is the same argument i used for the numbers in different clothing well, it depends on how you view strings sure you can always provide different views of strings some won't consider characters at all it doesn't necessarily make sense that they occupy named slots of /String they'll be parse trees with embeddings into the string namespace, so that the parser can interface to the lexer it's a type system of sorts, ok? a dynamic one one that doesn't care about implementation does this context make sense? i'm afraid it doesn't hm * eihrul/#tunes is still thinking of strings as a list of character objects. :) the argument assumes here that we're also disscussing tunes bah sequences of characters are only one String namespace you can have many it's a framework i guess you're wondering how to implement this kind of thing 09:40pm now, what of '..?' heh mobing on? moving on? sure its a related concept though well i'm thinking hand-shaking is a good metaphor for it a belongs to b if "a .." returns "b" * coreyr/#tunes tiptoes around the good slate discussion and waves to everyone goodnight. but "b" has to have some way to reach "a" eh? hm yes so you can use self-style objects and build the namespaces according to a user-level policy so basically: (since mo's intercept messages) if there is any Slot of Object and Container such that (Container Slot) => Object, then (Object ..) => Container ? iow * coreyr/#tunes is away: sleep toodles, corey yeah that'd be the usual way to organize things however... that loses some information :) it's the logical specification of the usual directory stuff in our more general terms that can handle cyclic graphs etc what info does it lose? namely, (Object ..) => Container, what of Slot? you mean how do you know what name you get the object back with? yep as a matter of fact, i've thought of that very thing quite a bit if you want to think in the reified sense the actual ".." of the Object would be the reified Slot itself it's actually sort of interesting what i came up with huh? a lambda, then? n'm :P uh sure 09:50pm well, anyway, i was considering a way to reify a Path object where it's parts are a bunch of objects mapped to the originals in the "path" of the object s/object/meta-object (clos-type)/ doh irc sux well, anyway, i was considering a way to reify a Path meta-object (clos-style) you could travel up and down it in this mirror of the original path using a uniform "forward" and "back" style interface i know this sounds pretty hokey it also depends on being able to do what you came to do by not implementing any other protocol in the parts of this path object well, just not fleshed out :) heh anyway, all the effects have to be shoved into the original objects you don't want your temporarily reified path parts to be muted because they're throw-away could you give me an example? :) * water/#tunes goes afk to get something to drink, hold on ok example... you're concerned with bar which is in /foo/quux/myObject when you reify a path, it looks for the root and follows ".." from bar to get to it as it goes, it accumulates the objects obtained, adding to an internal object structure that's probably just like a doubly-linked list where each element of it would inherit from the object in question 10:00pm and if you wanted to clone "quux" whenever you called "bar", you would have a meta-level interface for doing it of course the choice of the protocol for these little objects in the path might clash with the originals somehow hm otoh since you deliberately create the object, you can also deliberately make sure when you're calling that object's elements and when you call the elements' parents make sense? sort of i mean if you want the original object, you ask the meta-object for its parent in this case before sending the message slate's going to need quite a good bottom-up library but that shouldn't be a problem... at the very least we can make it like lisp's dude... don't worry about this stuff unless it affects the primitives i'm asking for you can always add primitive support for meta-level stuff later have we covered ".." well enough for your purposes, then? (i.e. just implement it as a regular slot with primitive support for efficiency) hm * water/#tunes remembers to email kent beck and ask for his toy experiments with smalltalk mo's 10:10pm hello? yep am wrastling with GNU make oh well, the library is going to be important because the compiler is going to be written with it :) and at the same time implement it... among other things 10:20pm hm 10:40pm anyone here any good at cgi ? i got a REALY complicated cgi script :P echo "Content-type: text/plain" echo `grep www /var/log/syslog | wc -l` try somewhere else please nevermind i figured it i had no shebang :P hrm it still dont work :P grrr cgi hates me :P we dont wanna hear it! ya no kidding try #linpeople or #php 10:50pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-140.s140.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes Any news on slate? working on the spec but it mostly depends on what eihrul and i agree on Ok well, it's not "ok" 11:30pm Eh? i'm getting impatient with myself 11:40pm -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Perhaps sometime.) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0606 IRC log ended Tue Jun 6 00:00:01 2000