IRC log started Sat Jan 1 00:00:00 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0101 -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) ho hum eh? bored * eihrul/#tunes is working on flewgc. flewgc? a small lisp for a science project i have to do for school (well, actually don't have to, but i want to for this particular project) -:- higby [root@ascend50.web-ster.com] has joined #tunes lo all 12:40am have the Y2K bugs eaten everyone in here... it that why nobody is talking -:- higby [root@ascend50.web-ster.com] has left #tunes [] 12:50am -:- water [water@tnt-10-10.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes wow. linux can be such a pain sometimes 01:40am -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[tnt-10-10.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- water [water@tnt-10-16.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes abi ldp? ldp is the Linux Documentation Project at 01:50am abi: no, ldp is the Linux Documentation Project at http://linuxdoc.org/ okay, water. 02:00am -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- NetSplit: varley.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [02:09am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [varley.openprojects.net] heh. here comes y2k! :) -:- Netjoined: varley.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-14.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes 02:10am -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us846.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1047.javanet.com] has joined #tunes hmm it seems you *can* mount ext2 under windows, in read-only mode so is everyone y2k now? hm maybe another 2hours before hawaii well, it's time for another reboot, wish me luck :) 02:30am -:- water [water@tnt-10-16.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- fire [no@209-68-229-41.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes hi fire, no major accidents in your neighbourhood? nah -:- fire` [no@209-68-229-47.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes damnit -:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (Ping timeout for fire[209-68-229-41.dialup.cust.tfb.com]) -:- fire` is now known as fire 03:00am -:- water [water@tnt-10-142.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes thanks, hcf 04:10am -:- water [water@tnt-10-142.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-48.ici.net] has joined #tunes morning all All bets are off, the world didn't end Downix: it'll end as soon as is unexpected hey downix Then it won't for a long, LONG time hey fire downix: as a long is 32 bits, it will be in 2038 a signed long even Fufie: I wonder how a 64-bit one would last im hitten the sack HAPPY NEW YEARS ALL * Downix/#tunes just woke up need to go to work for 4 hours nite merry fscking vacation, huh? -:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (you too) * Downix/#tunes is enjoying the /. comments minor problems with the y2k fixes, which themselves were not debugged I always wondered what it would be like in the year 19100 04:30am Never underestimate the power of COBOL Happy new year! ok all, off to work -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (BitchX: not from concentrate) * Fare/#Tunes malfunctions -- Y2K bug (and the bug is -- not enough sleep) 04:40am happy new year nappy few year hmm.. I think slashdotters should moderate up my small guide to making 2038 fun for C-programmers 05:00am -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (brb) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1047.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us312.javanet.com] has joined #tunes one y2k bug.. the EKG machines in sweden doesn't work so the nurses have to manually monitor the heart rhythm and a slashdotter called my post funny.. ;) 06:30am really ? -:- lar1 [larman@1Cust199.tnt20.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes Hey Stockholm (NTB-TT): Maskiner som automatisk registrerer hjertevirksomheten hos pasienter, sluttet å fungere på Akademiska sykehuset i løpet av nyttårsnatten, ifølge Sveriges Radio. smkl: I presume you can read norwegian 06:50am hey lar Hey I can't read Norwegian, but I think my friends mom can ;) is she scandinavian? Norwegian, I belive she hunts whales? I don't think so... hehe smkl: yeah.. all norwegians wherver they are in the world are on this really big whale-hunting crusade.. ;) smkl: and when we're unable to find whales, we kill seals.. even american Navy SEALs :) Hmmph! 07:00am at military, we had norwegian whale hunting bazookas they are disposable, but we had made practice versions of them, and they were always broken the finnish military? yeah how is the finnish military organised in case of enemy attack from the east? 07:10am they had put some stuff inside the used bazookas a large part of the norwegian military is basically just trained in guerrilla-fighting because the theory is that we can't withstand a russian full-scale attack and should just delay them till we get help Hmm all the mountains make norway nice for guerrilla-war it's a top secret ... they didn't tell so we can't tell it to GRU agents on irc Need a bigger army :) finland would probably try to withstand, like in WW2 a bloody war * smkl/#tunes notes that Finland wasn't on the nazi side .. we just attacked at same time as them and promised to fight to the end with them and bought their weapons and thought that hitler will save the world uh huh... the enemy of my enemy is my friend thinking? I presume so. I doubt norwegians have problems understanding the finns.. the swedes' attitude is much much more controversial in Norway and Denmark 07:20am -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from asimov.openprojects.net [07:23am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net asimov.openprojects.net -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- lar1 [larman@1Cust199.tnt20.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.105.146] has joined #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-137-183.s437.tnt4.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (main(){fork();main();}) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- ultima [pope@user-38lc67f.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-137-183.s437.tnt4.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp110.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-129-31.s285.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff ultima: #TUNES (BBIAF) -:- ultima [pope@user-38lc67c.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- _BC [dontcha@ptai01m02-121.bctel.ca] has joined #TUNES -:- SignOff _BC: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff ultima: #TUNES (Read error to ultima[user-38lc67c.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial137.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes Hey guys... how's Y2K treating you? -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-14.vpn.uib.no]) -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (kathyanne gets kick'd / as leaves fall on still waters / she is here no more.) -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-14.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes 02:00pm -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[216-164-129-31.s285.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-132-79.s333.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-172.ici.net] has joined #tunes -:- ult [pope@user-37kbavd.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes Gakuk lappola u yak! om erm mu what's up? * ult/#Tunes jut on irc for a sec... time is up well, its directed, but you can't definitively say where -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Downix[d-gnaps-172.ici.net]) 04:20pm -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-37kbavd.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-172.ici.net] has joined #tunes Ok, that was fun what was fun? got cut off -:- ult [pope@user-37kbauj.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes Fare: how do most lisps represent closures (and more importantly links back to variables in other frames or frames themselves)? eihrul: changes from lisp to lisp * ult/#Tunes ponders * ult/#Tunes likes closures eihrul: read the docs for CLISP for how it does k eihrul: But don't do it that way. then what way am i supposed to do it? :P native-code compiled LISPs may do it by pushing stuff on the stack then calling the dynamically bound body * Downix/#tunes is starting to learn LISP eihrul: However you want? i.e. a closure is basically the data of a static body and a vector of closed-over variables Fare: but what about when the closure outlives the creating frame? (unless you compile a closure in code that pushes the data and calls the body) and references variables in the creating frame.... eihrul: if the closure outlives the frame, then it's allocated on heap rather than on stack eihrul: Uhm...keep track of variables in a frame that are used in a closure seperately? ;) (and the closure does nasty imperative things like setting) ult: shush 04:30pm eihrul: oh yeah, and if it exposes variables, then these variables should be on heap, too you may conceptually separate the issues of currying and of allocation setq and friends are the spawn of bill! of bill? why so? you have to keep the variable alive if the variable was immutable, then you could merely hold its value in the closure from when the closure was created * ult/#Tunes bonks eihrul * Downix/#tunes is loving the responces he got from Amino so far Amino? Amino == new owners of Amiga Erm. gw sell em? ult: They did yesterday ult: Sold the trademarks, domain name, etc. yes, I was going to ask you about that. =) colio ult: Semi, they did not get the patents Amino gonna 'do it right'? doh that can hurt ult: It can, but it can also be a benefit, no chance for backwards compatability == a fresh start ult: I'm trying to convince them to licence my architecture for the new Amiga. hehe bahahaa but don't you still have 2 more years of dev time before its done? ;) ult: hey, I'm months if not a year more dev done than they do =) ult: 1-year to final prototype, 2 till production mostly due to a very long debugging stage AND time to develop apps 04:40pm * Fare/#Tunes finds it ridiculous to make a completely new system and stick the old brand "Amiga" on it Fare: Personally, me too. But hey, if it makes a sale, I'm happy. Why not call it "Atari" or "C256" ? it worked for the beer.... eihrul: And did not work for "New Coke" or even "Spectrum 2000", or whatelse. ZX Spectrum 2000 ! hehe * eihrul/#tunes tries to locate the closure parts of clisp's source to no avail. eihrul: read the documentation! Anyways, they did capture the best part of Amiga with the deal tho, the community eihrul: the bytecode is documented. Downix: There still is one? oh, the documentation :) * ult/#Tunes pokes eihrul what happened to emud? the community is sick of them, and there is no single way they can get to make it happy Fare: Agreed. Parts of the community are gung-ho PowerPC-ites, others say "The OS is it!" Some go for an upgraded AmigaOS, others for QNX or Linux, it's all a mess. Fare: And none of them understand that the Amiga is not something you can dissect and keep the name going. To keep the name, you need something VERY radical ult: it'll happen, some day... no it wont ;) what happened to lispmud? :P development continues its most likely going to end up as the multiplayer server for my rpg Fare: hrmm, is documentation in clisp distribution or at clisp's home? found it -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-37kbauj.dialup.mindspring.com]) 04:50pm Apple is worse than Microsoft Agreed M$ dominated through sharing Apple dominates through denial the market chose the least evil now that the good is on the place, the market will move to it * Fare/#Tunes wonders how fast the 21st century will get rid of intellectual property * AlonzoTG/#tunes wonders wheather prices will go down now that nobody is spending on y2k anymore... hey, when you said "Amino, new owner of Amiga", I originally thought you were talking of a particular hacker fool enough to purchase a second-hand A500 and make it his primary development platform. Fare: lol. Nope, I'm talking of the whole bowl of wax we'll be spending for Y2K for 364 more years, you know 05:10pm (longer than that, if you consider all the money governments are borrowing) =\ * Downix/#tunes nods * AlonzoTG/#tunes hates fiscal liberals. "liberals"? -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES ([BX] If idiots could fly, IRC would be an airport) as in far left socialist US "liberals", or far-right nazi austrian "liberals"? far right, people who issue $250 million in school bonds each election. =P uh? Each year I go to the polling booth and at the bottom it says "We want to spend more money, Will you let us issue tons of bonds which we will be paying off over the next decade? * Fare/#Tunes had to underclock this damn 6x86L ! I tell them to go blow but they keep coming back next year... =\ well, they send me letters so I pay more money to the IRS and if I refuse, they come and take my asset 05:20pm -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1018.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- iepos [iepos@d14.k1-1.tecinfo.com] has joined #TUNES hoy iepos greetings whats new? hehe... new? not sure not much Gakuk lappola u yak! gakuk "lappola u yak" ? hum. Some way to celebrate Y2K oh ok. heh heh fare, do you know anything about "strong reduction" with combinators... ? -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes iepos: like, getting rid of all beta-redexes, wherever in a term? no, not beta-redexes .... maybe you mean "strong normalization" ? i mean ... i gues for instance ... reducing "BCC" to "I" where B is composition and C and converse ("x.y.z.xzy") oh hum. More like expressing your terms by ways of a basis of generators? Hmm... not sure what you mean... Or just having an arbitrary rewrite system that's compatible with interpretation in terms of lambda-terms? i.e. compatible with some equational theory Well... (some other rewrite system) hmm I fear I'm no specialist in such things. heh heh oh well hmm I don't know how complex rewrite systems have been studied for combinators. In lambda-calculus, the thing I'm trying to do is very easy... is it? Reduce redexes inside of lambdas. ok, so you want to identify the notion of "inside lambda" with combinators? hmmm.... well the specific thing i want to accomplish is this : (...) 05:50pm iepos: what's that "maddog vs englishmen" affair? I need a system such that if "Fx" reduces to "Gx" for arbitrary "x", then "F" reduces to "G" "maddog vs englishmen" ? hmm.... fare: are you still planning on implementing lambdaND (or whatever you call it now :-)) ... ? sure, in as much as it's part of tunes or maybe rather a slightly more generic rewrite logic it still sounds interesting... lambdas are starting to look to me like a better base for a system than combinators not sure though I suppose you could implement your same kind of system using combinators if you wanted,... Billy is on CNN NOW to tell us how shitty his next OS will be! =P hmm 06:00pm fare: have you heard of Church's system of numbers (his way of identifying numbers with functions)? of course. Church numerals are famous. Church's numbers are lots of fun... i think they're my favorite. hmm... Have you ever considered an extension in which "-1" is taken as a function-inverter ? well, they are a fairly inefficient way to implement integers never heard of em. =\ I prefer logarithmic-sized representations Heh heh... still they are fun 06:10pm alonzo: the idea of a church numeral is this ... O = \ o s -> o the number 2, as an example, is a taken as a function that applies a function twice... That is, "2" is a binary function taking two parameters... call them "f" and "x" ... then 2(f,x) is f(f(x)) it applies f twice S n = \ o s -> s (n o s) then, "3" would make take a function and yield one that applies it 3 times some use \ s o instead of \ o s ok, church used \ s o oh, by "S" do you mean successor? hmm anyway, if "-1" was added, then fractions, roots, imaginary numbers, etc. could all be denoted... iepos: it doesn't work like that which would be fun. not sure about how to implement an efficient calculus though 8( what doesn't work? "-1" wouldn't be expressible as a lambda-term that might be a problem i guess Church numerals are just the lambda-translation of the abstract date type Inductive Nat := S: Nat->Nat | O: Nat . (Coq notation) yes, "-1" wouldn't fit into a pure lambda calculus system but it would be a fun extension if you want to represent another datatype (Z, for instance), you end up with a different lambda-translation that doesn't extend the former one now, if you want to "unapply" functions, that's possible, using logic programming yes unapply would be fun but problem problems heh heh but I have no idea what applying a function a fractionar number of times would be (even less what applying a function pi times would be) well, applying "1/2" to a function would make some sense... applying "1/2" to the "grandfather" function would give a "father" function... (because applying "2" to the "father" function gives a "grandfather" function) although I guess that apply pi times the multiplication by e^2i will yield the identity function or will it be more complex? hmm iepos: what when the solution isn't unique? not sure... i don't really know too much about numbers... yes, that bothers me one can't have an axiom schema like "unapply (apply f x) = x" or the system will be inconsistent because of many-to-one functions oops i meant "unapply f (f x) = x" how silly hmm 06:20pm what if x has many antecedents? not sure what you mean by "antecedent" a good example of the problem is the inverse of squaring (which is not one-to-one) anyway, it is probably not meaningful to talk about the inverse of squaring ... and if a system had "sqrt (sqr 2) = 2" and "sqrt (sqr (-2)) = -2" then it would also have "2 = -2" so i don't know but that does seem like the natural extension of church numbers anyway, i'm not sure i'd toss out church numbers based on storage-size... it is horrible if you represent church numbers in beta-reduced form... but maybe a system could use church numbers but just represent them in some other form maybe the shortest form... heh heh but i guess it's not really easy to find the shortest form of a lambda expression 06:30pm it wouldn't be too hard to get "almost shortest form" though, I think at least in most cases maybe not hmm i guess fare is gone now or has y2k eaten up your connection ? alonzo, are you still here? 8( om heh oh there you are watching billy. did that explanation a minute ago make sense? about church numbers? well I need some reading material to drool over... oh heh never have found much good stuff about this probably is some out there though well... if you are really bored... you can read my web page... at www.tunes.org/~iepos didn't really get to church numbers though, except in that last, unfinished, section heh okay. heh heh hmm 06:40pm iepos: that's why there's ND in lambdaND, btw oh so, an inverter function might be a nice primitive for non-determinism then :) non-deterministic systems still seem kind of weird to me but maybe useful i guess you were earlier thinking of using a "reification" function, giving an ob's "source code", for non-determinism i still like church numbers but storing them in normal (beta-reduced) form is a bad idea indeed hmmm... i just realized that Barendregt's book on the lambda calculus is available from Amazon never have read that have you read it? btw, reification is indeed inverting eval I guess if you call eval the taking of an expression and extracting its meaning, then reification would be the inverse ... yep.. err... i mean "denotation" by "meaning" I denotate "meaning" by "denotation" this reminds of quining i always liked quining but don't really quite understand it i think that's why i've never quite gotten godel's incompleteness theorem heh seen Reflection.html about quines? anyway i haven't let me see... i will 06:50pm what is a good english quine? (meaning a sentence that denotes itself) "quined" quined. yes that would work "predeced by its quotation" preceded by its quotation "is a quine when quined" is a quine when quined. * Fare/#Tunes goto 3053 ? 3053? um oh "followed by its denotation" followed by its denotation ood gnight! good night fare lots of stuff on this Reflection page 07:00pm om Billy is funny. He tells such great lies! -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial245.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes Ho abi, Haskerl? Haskerl is at http://www.people.Virginia.EDU/~sdm7g/LangCrit/Haskerl abi, Haskerl is also an April Fool prank okay, Kaufmann. -:- ult [pope@user-37kbaq7.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes 07:20pm -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-134.ici.net] has joined #tunes hey hoy -:- Downix_ [down@d-gnaps-134.ici.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Downix[d-gnaps-134.ici.net]) 08:00pm -:- SignOff Downix_: #TUNES ([BX] They killed Kenny! THOSE BASTARDS!) -:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBRB -:- KaufmannBRB is now known as Kaufmann -:- water [water@tnt-10-104.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes * eihrul/#tunes bows. hey Brian how's Y2K treating ya? y2k's fine here it's upgrading linux tha tsucks that sucks, even well, Unix is eeevil try kde it's really pretty damned good hellfire what's hellfire? as in "... and damnation!" heh I've /tried/ KDE why didn't you like it? KDE, CDE, Gnome... they're all crap uh i don't categorize kde with the other two well, what's NOT crap, then? as hard as they may try, they can't be good, because they are designed to stand upon a crappy foundation again, Unix is eeeevil again, wthat hte hell IS good? Clementine