IRC log started Mon Dec 13 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1213
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<smoke> hi
<hcf> hi
<lar1> hi :)
<smoke> what do you people think about Berlin?
<hcf> abi: webster for poop
<abi> poop may be sought at http://work.ucsd.edu:5141/cgi-bin/http_webster?poop
<hcf> lar1: theres one
<lar1> Mecri, hcf
01:00am
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<Fufie> (wish everyone 'good-morning)
01:40am
<lar1> (And a happy brithday)!
<lar1> I am saying this because I can and it will be put in the logs and because water isn't here tosop me and becuase noone else is talking and cause its really late and I am tired but i ahve to finsih this essay
<Fufie> saturday was my birthday.. not today :p
<lar1> Well I am only 2 days off
<lar1> Pretty good for not knowing
<Fufie> :)
01:50am
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<smoke> hm
* smoke/#tunes wants to research non-windowing user interfaces - does anyone know some pointers to get me started?
<lar1> non windowing GUIs?
02:30am
<lar1> didn't know there was such a thing
<smoke> hm there were a lot of applications with simple gui's
<smoke> i want to build one, but it doesn't have to be simple necessarily
<Fare> smoke: the Tunes UI project?
<Fare> smoke tunes.org/Interfaces/
<smoke> fare; ah - i had a look at the Review/ user interfaces page, but that one mostly consists of either broken links or links to very trivial ideas
<Fufie> fare: has any code been written there?
<Fare> nope
<smoke> fare: who's maintaining that subproject ? (it says chris no more is)
<lar1> smoke:  The review?
<abi> well, the review is http://www.tunes.org/Review/
<Fufie> would it be dumb to connect stuff to gtk/glade or should things be branc new?
<Fufie> branc/brand
<smoke> i meant the Interfaces subproject
02:40am
<lar1> smoke:  Well core is inchare of review last I checked but it is being redone by me, Tril and hcf
<smoke> i don't know how progressive tunes is meant to be, but starting from gtk+ won't get you very far imho
<Fufie> it will allow one to tap onto very active developer groups
<smoke> i'd suggest redoing a LOT of thinking about user interfaces. the line that says that WIMPish interfaces are better than commandline interfaces strikes me as odd
<Fufie> something like CLIM with enough widgets would be cooler though
<Fufie> get some life in the free CLIM project
<lar1> smoke:  Well, we are starting on OSes and VMs, when we get to interfaces we will take a look.  We appreciate your input!
<smoke> fufie; what would be an easy way to get me started with testing out the CLIM project?
<Fufie> smoke: go to www.harlequin.com and ask if you can beta-test the linux lispworks professional edition for an educational project (make something up) and say you want to experiment with CLIM
<smoke> lar; eventually interfaces will be an integral part of the system, so it could influence an OS at the base.. I do know that you all keep in mind that it's best to seperate these concerns as to keep things extensible, but I wonder if that's the right way..
<smoke> fufie; there's no free clim implementation or clone? 
<Fare> smoke: did you read what I wrote in Interfaces/ ?
<lar1> smoke:  How do you sugest we orginize the rewiew?
<smoke> fare; mostly
<smoke> fare; i have to reread it a few times before i start ranting :)
<Fare> do you know the HP 28 or 48 hand calculators?
<smoke> fare; i know the HP48(+?)
<lar1> Fare:  Yes, get a TI-89 instead
<Fufie> smoke: there is a free CLIM project which is sleeping 
<Fare> lar1: TI sucks
<smoke> fufie; sleeping as in dying? :)
<lar1> Fare:  Uhh, name one thing bad about their calculators
<smoke> bbl
<Fufie> smoke: like the princess in the overgrown castle.. she can sleep for a hundred years but a prince needs to come and rescue her
<Fufie> smoke: code doesn't die.. it sleeps
<Fare> smoke: like Cthulhu, who can sleep for a hundred billion years, but a prince needs to come and rescue Him
<lar1> Liek that fary tale
<lar1> Whose name evades be at present
<Fufie> it's a grimm one I think
02:50am
<Fare> Sleeping Beauty?
<Fufie> think so
<lar1> Or the one with the prince and the frog
<Fare> in the original story, the prince rapes her while she's asleep, and she only awakes at the birth of the child.
<lar1> Thats too harsh for preschoolers :)
<Fare> that'd make an interesting sequence in a remake of the Disney movie...
<lar1> Heh
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03:00am
<smoke> it's the one with the seven dwarfs, no?
<smoke> re
<smoke> is Tunes meant to be scalable to robots and the like?
<Fufie> no height-challenged people no
<smoke> fufie; :)
<smoke> (i'm not suggesting to run a themepark with seven tunes micromachines)
<Fufie> you mean, like three feet high and with 19" heads?
<smoke> fufie: and 102 fingers + Windows logo'ed nipples
03:20am
<smoke> the beard can function as either mouse or joystick
<Fufie> wonder whether they're bootable
<smoke> LOL
<smoke> well, what i meant to find out is if tunes is limited in this sense
<Fufie> singing "heigh ho heigh ho" with a pc speaker might be fun to listen too though
<Fufie> I think tunes was specifically designed for such theme parks
03:30am
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* iefbr14/#tunes wonders whet the hell a 'reflexive Computing system' may be.....
<Fufie> reflective?
<abi> reflective is being able to correctly model oneself; see Reflection
<Fufie> reflection?
<abi> i heard reflection was a property of a system that can refer to itself and manipulate its state or rough on your brain
<iefbr14> wow.
<iefbr14> wish i could do that !
06:30am
<Fare> Ricoh: je sais que tu peux.
<iefbr14> Fare:me voila rassure
06:40am
<Fare> iefbr: euh, tu as entendu parler du projet Tunes?
<iefbr14> fari: nope. c'est ok de parler francais par ici ?
<Fare> je sais pas. A toi de voir.
<Fare> abi: tunes?
<abi> hmmm... tunes is a free reflective computing system at http://www.tunes.org or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers or discombobulated or obnubilated
<iefbr14> abi: carbon based ?
<abi> iefbr14: i haven't a clue
<iefbr14> ....hm.... 
<iefbr14> abi: r u a bot ?
<abi> i haven't a clue, iefbr14
<iefbr14> abi : u r !
<iefbr14> abi : ?
<abi> no idea, iefbr14
<iefbr14> abi : where do we come from 
<abi> iefbr14: i don't know
<iefbr14>  wow. i though u did need the question mark. 
<iefbr14> fare: is abi sum reflexive thingy ?
<iefbr14> A Bot Indeed
<Fufie> abi: what is the sound of one hand clapping?
<abi> fufie: i don't know
06:50am
<iefbr14> abi: a hand clapping sounds like hammer hitting the air
<iefbr14> abi: what is the sound of one hand clapping?
<abi> iefbr14: bugger all, i dunno
<iefbr14> so, carbon based people around, what does tune do for now ?
<Fufie> do?
07:00am
<Fufie> should it do anything?
<Fare> iefbr: it makes people think and talk
<Fare> which is a good beginning (particularly the "think" part)
07:10am
<Fufie> gotta love www.suck.com :)
07:20am
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<OBCENEIKO> say does anybody know if you can get free internet access for linux?
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<iefbr14> br14'z back. 
<iefbr14> k. 
<iefbr14> think i did sound a bit agressive on this one. didnt intended to. 
<Fare> aggressive?
* iefbr14/#tunes just read www.suck.com .
<iefbr14> is it still funny think or regulary updated ?
07:50am
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<smoke> re
08:40am
<smoke> Could anyone here explain me how to load the CLX module in clisp?
09:00am
<Fufie> (require :clx) ?
<Fufie> it is explained in the docs
<Fufie> at least with Gilbert's new clx
<smoke> hah :) "it's explained"
<Fufie> pardon?
<smoke> i need to install the library somewhere before i can issue the (require :clx) command
<smoke> it's the installation that causes me trouble
<smoke> i tried typing 'make' for new-clx (nclx), but that wants ccmp2c, which I don't have nor know of what it could be (a preprocessor?)
<Fufie> for mit clx:  less modules/clx/mit-clx/README.CLISP
<smoke> hm :) i had only focused on new-clx 
<Fufie> I have tried both.. can't remember how I got new clx to work
<smoke> thanks
09:30am
<smoke> i find it remarkably hard to figure out how such simple things work
<Fufie> writng good docs is a rare quality
<Fufie> (writing without typos is hard enough for me obviously :)
<smoke> :)
<smoke> clisp can't find xlib::open-display even though i started it with -M clx.mem.. i wonder what i'm doing wrong
<Fufie> which clisp version do you have anyway?
<smoke> 1999-07-22 (compiled it myself)
<smoke> i'm downloading a .deb though, perhaps that'll help
<Fufie> ok.. I use 09-30
<smoke> the .deb is 7-22 too :)
<Fufie> 7-22 should work
<smoke> *** - BASE-CHAR is a built-in type and may not be redefined.
<smoke> i think that is an error message
09:40am
<smoke> should i try to comment out all (declare (type base-char char))'s or is there a better solution to this ?
<Fufie> sounds weird.. are you trying new clx or mit clx now?
<smoke> mit clx
<smoke> i can't do anything with new clx, since i don't know where to get ccmp2c
<Fufie> if i's not a rush I can have a go a little later.. I must answer some mails first
<smoke> oh that'd be great, but don't feel obliged or anything
<Fufie> if you have debian cmucl has a clx version that is easy to install if you want it simple
<smoke> yeah i tried that
<smoke> but i found it very slow at loading the clx library, so i wanted to compare to clisp
<Fufie> have you got ACL?
<Fufie> it also has CLX
09:50am
<smoke> hm no i don't think so
<smoke> i only have clisp and cmucl
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<tmf> hi
10:00am
<Fufie> hi tmf
<tmf> hi, I'm answering your mail
<Fufie> smoke: www.franz.com  it is gratis for linux
<tmf> "gratis"?
<Fufie> tmf: the mails grow rapidly in size :)
<tmf> This one will be short!
<Fufie> tmf: trying to add to english vocubalry.. they only have ski, fjord and quisling from Norway
<smoke> fufie; it's not really free :(
<Fufie> smoke: most of the world isn't but it's an excellent lisp for learning
<smoke> fufie; i'd rather stick to using free tools
<Fufie> feel free
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10:10am
<Fufie> hmm.. exec seems to be part of the shell.. is there an equivalent "command" as a program under Un*x?
<smkl> i don't know how you would implement that?
<Fufie> it could be implemented as a bourne shell script:  exec $*
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<Fufie> but I wonder if there is a standard unix program which does that
<smkl> how does that differ from just executing the program?
<Fufie> I am trying to persuade poplog that it should execute a command line but it wants to know the name of the program and I hoped to fool it with "exec" being the name of the program
<Fufie> /bin/test suppresses output :(
<smkl> so you want the shell expansion?
<smoke> fufie; what do you mean by execute a command line? can't you use sh -c ?
<Fufie> hmm.. sh should work I guess
10:50am
<Fufie> hmm.. sometimes the obvious answer is too damn simple.. thanks :)
11:00am
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<smoke> fufie; you there?
12:20pm
<Fufie> yes
<smoke> fufie; ah. i still haven't managed to link the clx into clisp.. i did find the command ccmp2c and got a .fas file though
<Fufie> ok.. I'll try
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12:50pm
<Fufie> hmm.. somewhat further.. 
<Fufie> smoke: check in the utils dir..
<Fufie> and I took a (load "clx-preload") and (load "clx-ini")
<smoke> what's .d ?
<smoke> ccmp2c.d 
<smoke> ah there we go
<smoke> ;;  Loading file /mnt/hdc2/clisp-1999-07-22/src/clx/new-clx/clx.fas ...
<smoke> *** - SYMBOL-FUNCTION: the function CLOSE-DOWN-MODE-SETTER is undefined
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01:00pm
<Fufie> yup.. I need to build clisp to see how I can get the ccmp2c working
<smoke> i got the ccmp2c working
<smoke> that's not the problem i think
<mibin> anybody knows any alterative to fft for spectral analisys?
<smoke> mibin; wavelets?: )
<mibin> heh, wavelet analysis isnt very different
<mibin> you just replace sine with arbitrary periodic function
<mibin> i need something giving a high resolution spectre
<smoke> hum
<smoke> no idea
01:10pm
<mibin> with fft i am forced to the resolution of a quarter of the number of input samples
<mibin> at least that appens with the fft library i am using
<mibin> happens*
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<mibin> ok i'll write my alternative fft myself =p
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<mibin> i will code it in perl of course
<mibin> =p
01:20pm
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<Fufie> smoke: it seems to have been done properly know but it dies on sth in the demo
<Fufie> s/know/now/
01:30pm
<Fufie> hmmpff..
01:40pm
<Fufie> oh well
<Fufie> mail gilbert and ask him
01:50pm
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<smoke> hm
<smoke> what do you mean with 'sth'?
<smoke> ah something
<smoke> woo! i've coded my first very useful common lisp program
<mibin> (message "hello")
<smoke> it's a "Guess a number under 100 with certain clues"
02:10pm
<mibin> 56?
<mibin> 83?
02:20pm
<smoke> mibin; try -2345
<mibin> -2345
<smoke> how do i pretty print strings with integers in cl ?
<smoke> mibin; correct
<mibin> is that a backdoor?
<Fufie> smoke: what do you mean strings with integers?
<Fufie> check FORMAT on how to pretty-print various numerical types
<Fufie> (let ((num 2345)) (format nil "~a" num))  will return a string "2345"
<smoke> fufie; something like printf("you've guessed it in %d times\n",times);
<smoke> ah!
<Fufie> (format nil "you've guessed it in ~a times" times)
<Fufie> and also check out how to make the last word be time/times depending on the number.. FORMAT does that
<smoke> wow
<smoke> ~R rocks too btw
<Fufie> yes it does
<Fufie> seldom useful though
<smoke> it was directly useful here 
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02:30pm
<smoke> ouch that plural form doesn't seem all to internationalizable to me
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<Fufie> think I'll crawl to bed
<mibin> happy crawling
<smoke> fufie; thanks for helping
02:40pm
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* FareWell/#Tunes watches "the day the earth stood still" on T.V.
<FareWell> Wierd. Yesterday, I saw a review of it while browsing the web...
03:00pm
<eihrul> tv?
03:20pm
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* zarq/#tunes is away: zzz
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<water> hi iepos
<iepos> oh hi...
<iepos> how's Arrow coming?
<iepos> hmm... gotta go
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05:10pm
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<lar1> Hey
<Downix> hey
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<lar1> Water!!!
<water> hey lar
<lar1> Long time nana see
<water> yeah
<Downix> hehe
<lar1> You were moving, no?
<water> yep, i now live on beacon hill in downtown seattle
05:20pm
<lar1> Cool
<Downix> cool
<Downix> I know where that is
<Downix> 8)
<water> yeah, i even got gassed by the cops on the WTO conference week... 3 times
<lar1> Why??
<water> heh
<lar1> Oh
<water> wrong place... wrong time
<Downix> oh man
<lar1> You are serious?
<water> concussion grenades suck, btw
* Downix/#tunes gets out the ripped jean jacket, puts on a headband with the Anarchist's symbol and rushes the cops screaming, "Get out of my way, Pigs!"
<Downix> lol
* Downix/#tunes can agree on the concussion grenades, I was hit by one once
<water> i wouldn't know about the rubber bullets because i didn't actually get hit with them
<lar1> Where were you that you got gassed?  I herd not of this in the news
<water> capitol hill and downtown area
<water> i was walking home from a conference on meditation
<water> anyway...
<lar1> And all the sudden the police just ripped open?  What caused this fracas?
<water> heh
* lar1/#tunes imagines a scene... Ok you mutha BEEPers.. we are gonn gass yer asses down!
<water> some over-zealous anarchists were making Molotov cocktails and breaking store windows, so i heard
<Downix> Oooo, that's a hard thing to make
<water> the police went a bit overboard, imo
<lar1> Oh yea, I remember hearing about somting to that effect
<Downix> stuff a rag into a bottle of vodka
<Downix> 8)
<water> a little more complicated than that
<lar1> So I assume you just busted out yer gas mask and contiuned walking?
<Downix> water:  A proper Molotov Cocktail is an ancohol soaked strip of a man's hankerchief stuffed into a bottle of Absolut
<water> heh
<Downix> which is the preferred drink of Ambassador Molotov, whom the cocktail is named after
* water/#tunes always carries his military issue Mk.5 gas mask ;)
<water> not really
<lar1> Well if you didn't bust out a gask mask, what _did_ you do?
<Downix> That is the wtory I heard, and the concoction works well enough
<water> downix: they were using some more effective mixes
<water> downix: and less drinkable ;)
<water> lar1: walked around it, mostly. through it, where i had to
* Downix/#tunes nods
<lar1> water:  And you didn't pass out and yer head didn't explode or anything?  What kinda gas were they using?
<Downix> there are much better mixes
<water> lar1: just standard tear gas
<Downix> I know of a nice mixture of kerosine and deisel that will result in a slow burning fire
<lar1> water
05:30pm
<Downix> or high-octane gasoline that has propane "carbonated" into it
<lar1> Dosn't that stuff make yer head implode?
<Downix> Can you guess I was my schools pyromaniac?
<water> lol
<water> downix: never would have thought it
<Downix> water:  I'm much better now
<lar1> Oh yea?  Thermite is where its at!
<Downix> lar1:  Slow-burning thermite is my friend
<water> lar1: no, it just clears up the sinuses, pretty much
* Downix/#tunes for awhile used some slow-burning thermite for shoe laces
<lar1> water:  Then whats the point of it?
<water> heh
<lar1> downix:  Whats the chemical compisition of thermite?
<water> ever had your sinuses cleared out in 30 seconds? :)
<lar1> water:  Uhh, no...
<water> there you go :)
<Downix> lar1:  I wish I knew, I always had to get mine from an anarchist friend of mine
<water> really gets your attention
<lar1> water:  Ah so... hence the name I assume?
<water> yeah, it also makes your tear ducts work overtime
* Downix/#tunes no longer bothers with his childhood facination
<Downix> I've grown out of pyrotechnics
<lar1> Downix: I heard it was oxidised iron with aluminum, but I don't belive it
<Downix> lar1:  Could be actually
<water> brb
<lar1> What did you set it off with?
<lar1> Doesn't that stuff need like 10000000000000000000000000000+ degrees celcius to react?
<Downix> lar1:  Hardly  set some steel wool on fire sometime
<water> b
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<lar1> <downix> Hardly  set some steel wool on fire somtime
<water> didn't miss anything
<lar1> Ok
05:40pm
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<water> eek
05:50pm
-:- PatBuchannan is now known as Downix
* water/#tunes whacks PatBuchanan with a small hydroelectric dam
<Downix> sorry, poking fun of Pat on another channel
<water> damn it, too quick!
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<Kaufmann> FOO!
<water> BAR!
<eihrul> BAZ!
<Kaufmann> No, I'm sorry, the correct answer is "What does (car *metasyntactic-variables*) evaluate to?"
<eihrul> gah
<eihrul> even associating foo with that game show has to be a crime somewhere...
<Kaufmann> bah
<Kaufmann> at least I mentioned Lisp
<eihrul> double crime...
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Read error to Kaufmann[dial727.infolink.com.br]: Connection reset by peer)
<lar1> Ever see _the matrix_, water?
<water> heh.
<water> 4 times in the theatres, 3 times at home
<lar1> Sweet
<lar1> I just saw it yesterday
06:00pm
<water> i guess you haven't seen "Being John Malkovich", then?
<lar1> No..
<water> very good movie
<lar1> On what is it based?
<water> and hilarious
<water> hmm
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<water> the premise is that there's this tunnel that you can travel through to get inside the actor John Malkovich's head
<Kaufmann> AAAAAirgh
<water> kauf: ?
<lar1> Ohh yea!  I rember the preview
<lar1> Err
<Kaufmann> my God-damned connection
<lar1> I rember a spoof of the preview
<water> that movie really haunted me
<Downix> hey
<lar1> Is this a recent production?
<Kaufmann> ho
<water> yeah, still in theatres, i think
<lar1> Cool, I will make it a point to see it
<lar1> Have you seen _the world is not enough_?
<water> yeah, pretty silly
<lar1> But quite cool
<lar1> From a gratitous sex and violence stand point
<water> pierce brosnan had his tongue welded to his cheek
<lar1> What do you mean?
<water> i mean the jokes were corny even from a 007 perspective
<lar1> Yea, the jokes did seem forced
<water> "i thought cristmas comes only once a year"
<water> s/cristmas/christmas
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<lar1> Yea, I forgot her name so it took me a minute to get that one
<lar1> (At the time)
<water> that suck.com parody is pretty good
<Downix> yup
<lar1> suck.com?
<Kaufmann> yeah... heh
<Kaufmann> I laughed my ass off
06:10pm
<lar1> bbl
<water> is suck.com just a parody site or something else? i never heard of them before this
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Kaufmann> water, I think I saw something about them some time ago, but my memory's not as good as it once was :) try doing a slashdot search on them
06:20pm
* water/#tunes 's temperature has reached 103F again
<water> :P
<Kaufmann> ouch
<water> yeah, it's been like this since saturday
<water> the doc gave me some extra medicine today and 2iv bags, but here the fever is again
<Kaufmann> only one solution, my friend
<Kaufmann> get yourself some assemblers, rebuild your body with nanotech and become a cybergod
<water> which is... ?
<water> lol
<water> it's funny how we throw around 'cyber' this and that for cool new applications of high-end technology, when all 'cyber' means is 'man'
<Downix> actually
<Downix> cybernetic means controlling
<Downix> or self-controlling
<water> "cyber"+"naut" = steersman of a ship
06:40pm
<Downix> water:  Different origin of CYber
<water> doubt it
<Downix> cyber as used in cybernetics is Kibernetic, Self control
<water> right, which came from the greek word "kaiber"
<Kaufmann> oooh, we seem to have plenty of Classicists here tonight :)
<Downix> yup
<water> cybernetics as a word came from the greek word for the steersman of a ship
<Downix> hmm
<Downix> well, doesn't matter
<water> abi pcp?
<abi> somebody said pcp was Principia Cybernetica, a web-based public theory of cybernetics and systems theory or http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/
* Downix/#tunes will look that up
06:50pm
<Kaufmann> *sigh*
<water> ?
<Kaufmann> nuthin'
<water> hmm... there's a great write-up of squeak on osnews
<Kaufmann> ?
<water> what?
<Kaufmann> osnews
<water> www.osnews.com
<Downix> hmm
<water> they're not very frequent with postings, though
07:00pm
-:- lar1 [lar1@dialup-209.245.143.206.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes
<lar1> Hey
<water> barley
<lar1> Wheat!
<water> rice :)
<lar1> Soy!
<water> oats
<water> ouch... migraine
<water> :(
<lar1> I thought you didn't support noies in the channle
<lar1> Yuck
<lar1> Sorry to hear that
<water> i'm sick
<water> saturday night, all the furniture in my room and my pda were nagging me
<Kaufmann> waitaminnit
<water> i was just a bit delirious
<Kaufmann> the furniture in your PDA?
<Kaufmann> am I missing something?
<water> *and*
<water> oic
<water> dangling participle and all that
<lar1> What kind of PDA?
<water> cassiopeia e-100
<lar1> Is it expense--; of that of the palm piolt?
<water> yeah, $500
<water> but it plays mp3's and runs squeak
<lar1> Sounds neato
<water> and i have a fully-detailed map of seattle
<water> i don't reallly play mp3's with it, i just use it as an alarm-clock/organizer
07:10pm
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-:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [king.openprojects.net]
-:- Netjoined: king.openprojects.net irc.linux.com
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<water> wb
<lar1> Huh?  I never left did I?
<water> yep
<lar1> Woah... I didn't notice that.. well at least it reconnected for me
<lar1> what was the last thing you saw me say
<water> "Sounds neato"
07:20pm
<lar1> Ah
<lar1> You missed, "BTW, an unfinsihed work of mind, http://www.tunes.org/~lar1/art2.gif icuc... I don't remmeber if I gave you the plug yet
<lar1> I have accually finsihed it but I havne't scanned it yet
<water> nope. you didn't
<lar1> Ah, well if you like anime it might be worth a look.  Perhaps it will look good in yer dilerious state ;)
<water> yes, a nice anime style. i assume the final version looks very good
<lar1> Well its not colored or anything, but I think it looks goood
<water> ok
<lar1> Its my very first attempt too!
<water> cool
<lar1> Thanks
<lar1> You have herad that hcf, and I are working on redoignn the review?
<water> really?
<water> which one?
<lar1> Operating systems and Vitrual machines first, we will domore as time progresses
<water> ok
<lar1> It will have a nice php3 interface to the sql database and it will be sweet
<Downix> ok
<water> i found a software system the other day that is actually using a notion similar to my ontology notion
<lar1> Really?
<water> (sorry, my mind is jumping spuriously)
<water> "Model-Integreated Computing Environment"
<water> it's on the reflection review page
<lar1> Thats alright, just ask hcf how I was this morning at 3am ;)
<lar1> Hmm, what is it used for?
<lar1> Ah, ok
<water> they actually use multi-graph's to represent translating information from one domain to another
<water> (just wait till they see my *reflective* multi-graphs)
<lar1> Sounds nifty
<lar1> Heh
<water> they describe it as a "macro data-flow network"
<water> of course, i want to make it into an internet of sorts
<lar1> A reflective internet
<lar1> This hurts my head
<Downix> ooooo
<water> well, an internet of ideas
<water> not just of data
<lar1> ideas are a form of data, no?
<water> yeah, but html ain't always the best format ;)
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<lar1> What format will this envrioment implemnnt?
07:30pm
<water> the idea is to be able to link others' ideas in terms of your own understood concepts
<water> "format"?
<water> arrows, of course! :)
<lar1> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
<lar1> An entire interent of... li..li...li...LINKED LISTS!
<water> yep
<lar1> Just thingnk I have a hard time with ip masq now... oh god ;)
<water> reflective, too
<water> the linked lists are the content, though, not the low-level format
<lar1> That was a scream of fear not a soud of enlightenment
<water> oh
<water> :(
<lar1> I am sure you have heard the tales of my Linked lists lib
<lar1> I swear I will never code a linked list libary again
<water> well, if i work the design out right, code re-usability will be of a ridiculously high level
<water> no, i haven't
<water> i bet you coded it in c
<water> :)
<lar1> C++!
<water> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
<eihrul> lar1: std :: list
<lar1> and its because I didn't know I could do som operations that are leagal
<water> an entire library built from C++!
<Downix> wow
<lar1> eihrul:  Yeah, I know now but at the time I was coding my own std :: list cause I didn't know of the libaray
<water> oh dear god! :)
<water> lar1: Squeak
<eihrul> they describe the STL in every book on the language
<lar1> water:  Aw, calm down the linux kernel is c++!  and you are mostly likely using that right now ;)
<eihrul> linux kernel is plain C
<lar1> I really will learn forth, honest!
<water> lar1: touche, but only because there aren't better choices
<lar1> water:  ASM or your bar.. err.. squeak
<eihrul> haskell!
<water> heh
<water> another good hll
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<eihrul> i like it a bit more than smalltalk
<eihrul> maybe just because it comes with much better documentation :)
<lar1> Why do you all like hlls?  Don't you like being in absoulte control of the proccessor?
<water> yeah, well, i consider the contents of a smalltalk code browser window ample documentation
<Downix> hehe
<water> heh
<eihrul> lar1: don't confuse power with control
<eihrul> well... the problem becomes: you can't necessarily learn smalltalk without documentation
<eihrul> nor haskell
<water> yeah, and i like reaching into my car's transmission with my bare hands to shift gears
<eihrul> haskell just happens to have documentation floating all over the place
<eihrul> lar1: you can have power at a high level of abstraction
<water> eihrul: tried squeak?
<eihrul> yes
<eihrul> you nearly made me try it :)
<water> i learned smalltalk from squeak
<lar1> ehihrul:  Compile time  is longer the higher up you go, no?
<eihrul> no....
<water> not necessarily
<lar1> But it can be it depends on the compiler
<eihrul> AFAIK, gcc is slower than any other compiler i've seen
<eihrul> well, with the exception of Stalin
<water> the usual problem with hll's is run-time
07:40pm
<water> definitely not compile time
<lar1> What is bad at run-time?
<eihrul> haskell has a very explicit type system though
<water> lar1: speed
<eihrul> that in theory would allow it to produce efficient code
<lar1> Water: Ah hah!  I got a hll cult boy to admit hll is slow!  exucse me a moment... Woooooooooo!
<eihrul> whereas smalltalk relies more on polymorphism
<water> uhh yeah, but hll's are for exploratative programming... trying new ideas quickly
<lar1> This is true
<eihrul> lar1: you're arguing the wrong point... because we all know they can possibly be slower... not why you use them
<water> the holy grail is to get a high-quality hll that can run very quickly, like self
<eihrul> hmm, how quickly does self run? :)
<lar1> Well there has to be a slow down somwhere, either compile time or run time
<water> self's benchmarks when properly implemented are supposed to be half those of optimized c++
<lar1> How does it compare to well crafted ASM?
<water> and there could be room for improvement, if more people worked on the compiler
<eihrul> water: how does self differ from regular smalltalk?
<lar1> BBL -- food, kernel update
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> eihrul: self has no classes, only prototypes, and it "inherits by parts": you can inherit the state of another object with yet another's behavior
<eihrul> how does this allow it to be optimized so well though?
<water> self represents a very pure "objects with slots" method
<water> well, the run-time system compiles specialized versions of methods for integers or strings, e.g.
<water> as well as the usual generic bytecode strings
<eihrul> ah, so it does unboxing/etc
<water> yeah, but it's also very elaborate in how it goes about it
<eihrul> how so? :)
<water> well, it also goes into some higher-order type-system stuff
<water> and also inlines messages and detects loops, etc.
07:50pm
<eihrul> know where i can find any good information on prototypes?
<water> there's a book that came out this year on prototype-based languages, actually
<water> but otherwise, just check out a computer languages directory
<eihrul> looking around
<eihrul> and can find no conclusive definition of it
<water> self, omega, newtonscript, ...
<water> it's basically where every object acts like a class
<eihrul> doesn't that use up extra memory?
<water> which allows some simplifications in code systens
<Downix> hmm
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08:10pm
<water> brb
<water> back
<water> there's a paper called "self: the power of simplicity" which explains why prototype-based programming is so useful
<eihrul> url?
<water> abi self?
<abi> i guess self is a prototype-based object system or at http://self.sunlabs.com/
<water> under the papers section
<water> how goes it, hcf
<water> ?
<hcf> fine, and u?
<water> slowly getting over a very bad stomach flu
<water> lar1 mentioned that you and he would be updating review
<water> abi MICE is model-integrated computing environment at http://www.isis.vanderbilt.edu/research/edcs/edcs.html
<eihrul> sheesh, sun is digging into claws into smalltalk as well
<eihrul> ?
<water> naw, they're not interested in self as a language
08:20pm
<water> they just wanted good compiler tech for java
<eihrul> so why didn't they just develop it for java?
<water> self on java?
<water> oh n/m
<water> dunno
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<water> they were toying with self before java and the web became an issue
<lar1> hey
<water> hey
<water> hcf: so what of updates to review?
<water> well, as a random comment, i consider it really cool that mice offers a MultiGraph Architecture for metaprogramming components
<water> it's almost what i have in mind for my ontology system
<water> as if anyone
<water> 's listening :)
<lar1> water:  Whats yer review question again?
<water> dunno. i just wanted to know what exactly you guys have planned for review
<lar1> Well the whole thing is gonna be SQLed in to the tunes DB.  I am writing php3 scripts so that tunes members can add/modify entries to make a sort of open tunes member update format
<water> hm
08:30pm
<water> when will this be done?
<lar1> The current content will be anaylized and redone where needed.  A main goal is to remove the apperent bais that exists still
<lar1> I am not sure
<lar1> As soon as I get linux with ppp
<hcf> abi: any progress?
<abi> none at all
<lar1> hcf:  Yes,I have started in on some of the scripts
<lar1> Who ever helps get ipchains going not only gets brownin points but will help expidete the reiev project!  Whos for it?
<water> darn it, i wish i had a clear-cut way to figure out the rest of the primitives for arrow
<lar1> When ever I need a clear cut I polish my glasses and sharpen my knife...
<lar1> ;)
<water> thanks :P
<eihrul> water: hmm, prototypes look extremely familiar.... 
<eihrul> looks like an old language idea i had years ago
<water> well, they're not a difficult concept
<water> you could easily hack together such a thing in lisp
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
08:40pm
* water/#tunes enjoys a nice romp thorugh xxx.lanl.gov
<lar1> water:  You are just as bad as _ruiner_!
<water> ruiner is into theoretic math and science papers, too?
<lar1> Umm, I am not sure, but he would like the 3rd level of the domain
<water> heh
<water> no, xxx.lanl.gov is *definitely* not about that
<water> although the theories of curvature and homologies are quite scintillating :)
08:50pm
<water> heh. there will always be branches of mathematics that everyone will find completely unreadable
<lar1> I propose waterism bedecalred a for of math
<water> lol
<lar1> Damnit the keyboard has a funkeyed up spacebar
<water> don't worry, the next version will be quite legible
<water> keep in mind that i wrote the last draft while at sea
<lar1> :)
<water> bleh, nothing on lanl is helpful
<water> (not for me right now, anyway)
<water> hcf: got any links for model theory?
<hcf> no, whatcha need?
<water> extensions to model theory
<water> anything with a different perspective
<water> or anything that applies model theory to software
09:00pm
* water/#tunes 's fever has almost disappeared again.
<hcf> water: keywords to go along w/ that?
<water> surprise me.
<water> seriously, i'm looking for things that i haven't yet thought of
<water> i'm looking, too, of course
<water> hcf: btw, that mice thing also uses the term "metamodel" a few times, and formally, too
<water> hcf: sounds like something that could help jdl out as well
09:10pm
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<water> hey td
<td> hey water
<water> it's pretty quiet now. what's news for you?
<td> not much really
<td> kinda bored.. thought something might be going on here
<water> hmm.
<water> i'm scanning the net for ideas for arrow
<water> a few here are lurking
<td> heh. so have you done anything w/ arrow yet?
<water> do you follow the mlist?
<td> i think im subscribed still
<td> seems i only get a few emails every now and then
<water> well, the spec updates i posted a month ago should be completed soon, with any luck
<td> oh.
<water> the problem is that there are several ways to do it, each with it's problems
<td> hmm. i'll have to see if i can find the email
<water> just look at the tunes web index of the mlist
09:40pm
<hcf> water: http://www.ltn.lv/~podnieks/gta.html, http://www.math.toronto.edu/~weiss/, http://epubs.siam.org/sam-bin/dbq/article/31952, http://www.daimi.au.dk/~pnuern/papers/diss/diss.html
<water> cool
<water> thanks
<eihrul> where does hcf get all these links?
<eihrul> just spend hours sifting through stuff for them?
<water> hcf is the god of web-searching
<eihrul> but doesn't he have anything else to do? :)
<water> hcf: the first one is AGT, fyi
<hcf> water: agt?
<abi> agt is Around Goedel's Theorem at http://www.ltn.lv/~podnieks/
<hcf> oh
10:00pm
<water> hcf: that last one looks pretty damn interesting
<hcf> cool
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10:10pm
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<water> bedtime for tunesers! :)
<water> abi seen jdl?
<abi> I haven't seen 'jdl', water
<hcf> water: last thing from jdl, 1999.1116:<jdl> Anyone here?
<water> thx
10:30pm
<hcf> water: http://www1.acm.org/turing/sigmod/dblp/db/conf/lics/lics98.html, http://www.uni-leipzig.de/~philos/stekeler/text9.htm, http://www-mgi.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/FMT/, http://dmoz.org/Science/Math/Logic/Logicians/, http://www.iwp.uni-linz.ac.at/lxe/NTCS/DIV/split_semantics/Split_Sem_2.HTML
<hcf> probly mostly crap
<water> yikes
<water> you know, i'd bet grep'ing http would turn up some interesting stuff
<water> over the irclogs, of course
<hcf> i keep getting links to ur paper in hit lists
<water> heh
<water> once again, the last one is the interesting one
<hcf> heh
<water> mostly because i've covered the others, not because they were crap
<hcf> oh, good
<hcf> :)
<water> heh
10:40pm
<hcf> water: http://www.ex.ac.uk/~PErnest/pome10/art9.htm, http://setis.library.usyd.edu.au/stanford/entries/mathematics-constructive/, http://cybercom.net/~rbjones/rbjpub/philos/maths/, 
<hcf> http://www.seas.gwu.edu/~nelwww/biblio.html, http://alpha-bits.ai.mit.edu/people/jcma/papers/1986-ai-memo-871/memo.html
<water> don't worry about the commas there, it just makes it harder to select the right text
<water> that's enough for tonight anyway
10:50pm
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<water> hello
<hcf> hi
<water> :b
11:40pm
-:- SignOff saihttam: #TUNES ("Better to sleep with chicken than to choke it.")
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1214
IRC log ended Tue Dec 14 00:00:01 1999