IRC log started Sat Jul 31 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0731 -:- NetSplit: king.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [12:07am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [king.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: king.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- liar [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff liar: #TUNES (Ping timeout for liar[p0wer.qzx.com]) -:- Fare [fare@d026.paris-121.cybercable.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[d026.paris-121.cybercable.fr]) -:- Fare [fare@d026.paris-121.cybercable.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[d026.paris-121.cybercable.fr]) -:- Fare [fare@d026.paris-121.cybercable.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- smoke [smoke@14dyn86.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes hi 06:00am -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp70.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[d026.paris-121.cybercable.fr]) -:- Fare [fare@d026.paris-121.cybercable.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[d026.paris-121.cybercable.fr]) -:- Fare [fare@d026.paris-121.cybercable.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[d026.paris-121.cybercable.fr]) -:- Fare [fare@d026.paris-121.cybercable.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- smkl [sami@MCCLXXVIII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250110.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hey yeah! fare, does this sound like a good memory allocation scheme?: which? create a linked list of free physical pages, with a pointer to the next free page in the first word? maybe I should add a 'size' field, for when there are a bunch of contiguous free pages? pyro: that's ok for worst-case scenarios, but unhappily causes lots of page-thrashing TLB misses and DRAM-fetching, if you see what I mean oh yeah :) so I should put everything in one place? basically, yes Or rather, you allocate "meta-pages" (statically or dynamically) that indicate which pages are free I guess the Boehm GC has lots of interesting code in it for such things... 07:50am a meta-page? you mean a data structure yeah, but this data structure may grow as there are more "free" pages to list... and shrink as memory is filled up a stack or a list? where can I find Boehm, anyway? http://reality.sgi.com/employees/boehm_mti/gc.html a stack implemented as a growing/shrinking list of pages. (shrinking only lazily) hmm, speaking of SGI.. what's a "journalling filesystem"? Does that mean it tracks changes, sort like 'diff'? yup, they store changes, in such a way that you can always restore a "stable" state of the filesystem much like failsafe orthogonal persistent stores, only their store is specialized for files 08:00am heh.. they buried a guy on the moon yesterday poor moon ok 08:10am I think I'll just use a 12-byte structure (address, size, next) for each block of pages, and when an entry isn't used anymore, add it to a list of unused structures to be re-used abstract those details away if you can yuck.. C the algorithms need not be kept in C it's just a pain to read 08:20am this low-level stuff gets so obfuscated when you do it in C s/low-level / s/\/$/\/\// what?? C obfuscates stuff, stop. No matter this stuff being low-level. Granted, C makes high-level stuff so difficult and/or inefficient, that indeed the stuff you obfuscate in C is likely to be low-level. ok, but page allocation is a low level thing C makes it hard to interact with the hardware not _that_ hard. Although it does obfuscate it hey what's a good hash function that doesn't use DIV? 08:30am hum is it DIV by a constant? yeah well, modulus oh key MOD (# of entries in table) well. How "long" will these hash data be? how frequently will they be recomputed? etc... who knows? mod-based hashes are among the simplest right.. the only ones I know :) first, make your code modular relative to the hash function yup, sort of you can reuse the code in OCAML (uses modulus) -:- shamino [sr@phila-dialup100.nni.com] has joined #tunes I'm putting my hash function inline, but it'll be easy enough to replace I'll mark it clearly :) 08:40am >>> pyro [tcn@cci-209150250110.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 933436267 830820 from #tunes >>> shamino [sr@phila-dialup100.nni.com] requested PING 933436303 from #tunes what's this unknown ctcp PONG? it's "ReflectiveScript" 's response to PING pyro did you ever write a script for IrcII? nope 08:50am hmm sometimes I think it's better NOT to reuse code you waste more time (your time and the computer's) trying to make it reusable * shamino/#tunes nods to pyro 09:00am why is it a waste of time? sometimes it is, indeed if it requires you write extra code, then yes but i usually find plenty of opportunities where it's effortless to make the code reuseable in this case i'm writing hash-table code that will be used with pointers and strings.. pointers can be handled so much more efficiently than strings, so it makes sense to use different code 09:10am hashing pointers? beware why? the problem is: if you have a moving/swizzling garbage collector, you can't trust pointer values. I don't why would you want to reuse there? that would be gratuitously useless what's in this hash table? addresses and the other one is for symbol tables well.. at least retro is setup so I can easily switch to a different data structure for the symbol table addresses of what? 09:20am used logical memory blocks so I can find them quickly when I have to free them a tree would get unbalanced 09:30am -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (pyro has no reason) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[14dyn86.delft.casema.net]) -:- shamino [sr@phila-dialup100.nni.com] has left #tunes [] -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.222] has joined #tunes What can I say... I'm back! Any GURPS lovers here? 10:10am GURPS? A RPG I rectify, the BEST RPG ever 10:30am the BEST RPG, ever, is LIFE "Life"? As in Conway? Or as in life? 10:40am isn't the latter actually implemented on the former? -:- shamino [sr@phila-dialup476.nni.com] has joined #tunes How so? didn't you know that the universe was actually implemented by God on a gigantic board of Conway's LIFE ? haha Oh, I see How foolish I have been At least that explains the quanta it also uses "lossy" algorithm, which accounts for apparent quantum non-determinism: the emulator forgets "unneeded" information and lazily "reconstructs" it by making a wild guess it also accounts for speed of light: information cannot go further than one square per cycle Hmm... that'd make an interesting calculation What is the size of the Planck length, in meters? what's the definition of Planck's length? 10:50am It's the minimum quantum uncertainty 61453 time! Planck's constant is in kg*m^2/s !!! Eeek! That's not what I asked... I want to know the Planck length, not the Planck constant I am mistaken, then Of course, if I had an actual education in Physics, I'd already know it ask the web? BRB\ 1.6E-35m If the size of the square is 1.6E-35, and 3E8m/s = 1 square/cycle, then what fraction of a second is a cycle? 11:00am Does your box have a decent calculator? * Kaufmann/#tunes pokes Fare * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 18 hrs 27 min 2 secs Tril, got a calculator? sure, dont' you? i don't know anything about planck -:- shamino [sr@phila-dialup476.nni.com] has left #tunes [] Do this calculation, please: (3*10^8)/1.6*10^-35 ^ stands for "to the power of" 1.875e43 Thankee! np :) 11:10am So the cycle time is 1/1.875E43 seconds i.e 1.875*10^-43 whatever cycle time is :) Hrmmm. It'd take a computer with a clock of 18750000000000000000000000000000000000 MHz to do what That is, about 100000000000000000000000000000000000 times faster than a P200 . For God to emulate the universe on a gigantic, 3-D board of Conway's LIFE, as per Fare's thesis. That is, if each square were emulated by one individual processor ALL running at this clock Actually, it would work best as a FPGA Then again, nobody seems to be listening. 11:20am oh how big is the universe according to Fare? I don't know... he didn't mention that But it's not relevant. What led me to this figure is his postulation that the reason for the speed of light is that information can't travel faster than one LIFE square per cycle. the reason for the speed of light is in the way it is measured- how is that, anyhow? So, assuming that a "square" is a cube whose dimension is the Planck length (1.6E-35), I arrived at the value for the cycle. So for a real-time emulation, a computer has to update each square in 1.875E-43 second Tril, what? Tril, is the Matrix a new movie? 11:30am abi, not anymore.. kaufmann, do you know how the speed of light was measured in the first place? Tril, no Why? 11:40am ... because any measurement is biased by the way in which it is obtained. -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250115.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes Oh boy. You know you're going insane when you start singing little baroque themes in your head... and then you think "why the fuck didn't Bach think up /this/ one?" all great musicians are crazy Tril, what? somebody said Tril, was the Matrix a new movie? eek haha kaufmann, um, ... why do you keep not seeing what I write? line noise? abik, forget tril abi, forget tril pyro: I forgot tril no no no wrong factoid. abi, forget tril, what? pyro, I didn't have anything matching tril, what abi: forget tril, smkl: I forgot tril, abi, forget tril, pyro, I didn't have anything matching tril, abi tril is http://www.pacificrim.net/~dem/ or mailto:dem@tunes.or gor the admin of bespin.dhs.org or a person who deserved a better factoid tril: i haven't a clue tril, what? see, it was "tril" -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Read error to Tril[bespin.dhs.org]: Connection reset by peer) tril, what? -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Write error to Tril[bespin.dhs.org], closing link) -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ I don't not see... I just don't understand f what's your native language? Whose? yours English heh and his is.. portuguese? Kaufmann do you know the uncertainty principle? pyro, yep Tril, yeah kaufmann well what is your interpretation of it Tril, ever heard of the Theory of Elementary Waves? maybe 11:50am Let me find an URL I haven't heard of it anywhere else, and haven't investigated it further, but it seems quite promising... you guys are trying to figure out the key to reality? It provides an interpretation of the observations that is mathematically equivalent and yet doesn't seem as pointlessly Kantian as the Copenhagen interpretation. Here it is: http://www.reasondigest.com/fall1998/waves.html (part 1) my 486 is on acid! pyro, take it to Betty Ford You know your 486 is on acid when it performs arithmetic operations like a Pentium, . actually I think it's become sentient (it has a mind of its own) Hey, I'm going to use that quote! pyro, well, is it having existential crises yet? so now I don't know if I got my video driver working, or the computer decided to give me a break today :) well, it went catatonic a few times *sigh* I feel so depressed... I'm nothing but a machine... Or middle-age crisis *sigh* I can't hold up to these new kids... a Pentium III/500 came into the office today and all the Xerox printers were falling all over it... I think my hard drive isn't quite as large as it used to be... 12:00pm I meant to write "...were all over it" I only have a P133 here only 4x faster :) Heh I want to write a comic strip about the life of a computer... sorta like Garfield, but with a Pentium 100 it's 3pm already??!! No, it's 4 PM Then again, you might not be in the same place as I/ "when you commit suicide you can't defend yourself anymore" haha it's 12:15PM i read part1 No, it's 4:16 PM why does it say that particles AND waves are elementary, instead of just saying the waves behave in a way to make a particle appear to exist brb Tril, I don't know. I didn't write the damn thing. 12:10pm I think everything is made of thoughts not waves Tril, what? the wave theory said that waves are the fundamental entity of the universe And you say it's thoughts. sure I get that. But why? well some people say that your experience is colored by expectations and beliefs what if your experience actually IS deteremined by expectations and beliefs. not just colored How so? like for example.. if a scientist is doing an experiment. They expect to discover a new particle. What if the particle doesn't exist until the experiment? Oh, I see your point The question is... of existence and consciousness, which one determines the other? why are they separate? (no you don't cease to exist when you go unconscious- you just aren't totally unconscious) Because they /are/ separate. That's not a question. why? One must have primacy over the other. why, so you can have a nice hierarchy? We're walking on much treaded ground here. What we're discussing is metaphysics, and people much smarter than us have already discussed it. Before we try to reinvent the wheel, read this text for the objectivist point of view: http://www.angelfire.com/pq/fratre/objectivism.html 12:20pm oh, I'm a Christian Scientist. I've been trained in metaphysics since elementary school :) EEEEEK! You're Xian? what are you? I'm a materialistic objectivist. yes. But note that many other Xian churches declare Christian Science to be a cult, because we claim Jesus is a regular person, and not the same as God is objectivism your "holy grail"? Tril, what do you call "Christian science"? In my mind, the expression equates with "Creation science" heh, not to be confused with Scientologiests LOL pyro pyro, what do you call a holy grail? Kaufmann, it's a church established about a century ago, see http://www.tfccs.org you know, something you'll never find Heh, DALNet has split. What else is new? pyro, then no. well, gotta go bye Knock yourself out!!! oh yeah, almost forgot to commit retro :) the reason you logged on, undoubtably :) * pyro/#tunes nods bye -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (pyro has no reason) Kaufmann not creation science, it's called Christian Science beacuse we believe Jesus healed through scientific means (which we study) Tril, I'm reading the FAQ ok, it's probably better at introduction than I am :) 12:30pm Um... it's not. In fact, I could make no sense out of it. Making sense out of Christian texts is turning out to be a science in and of itself So please explain most Christian churches teach Jesus healed by miracles and the reason he could heal is because he was God come to earth (I think that's what they teach, anyway, I'm not sure) Mm-hmm CS teaches that Jesus was a regular person, just he did a better job. Healing is done by scientific principles which can be used by ANYONE. Do these principles have anything to do with common medicine? Do they have anything to do with what we know about the nature of the human body? no. medicine is the use of material objects to have effect on the body CS is entirely mental. as such, we do not go to doctors or have regular immunizations Have these methods been scientifically proven to work? (well, we are allowed to, but don't have to) 12:40pm yes, they are proven through demonstration of people who are actually healed by them. No, I'm talking about one or more qualified scientists taking a statistically unbiased sample of variously ill individuals, taking each of them in to a controlled environment along with a Christian Scientist and observing the method at work. This is what qualifies as scientific proof. what would the scientist see? an ill person suddenly become well? but what would they gain from observing that? Even if you do that, there's still the psychosomatic effect Tril, this is my question - if it has been done, and the scientists have observed /that/. that may be proof of the effects of CS, but not as effective as if the scientist learned the principles of CS, and applied them to themself Kaufmann, ok, it has probably been done, and I don't have an answer since I'm not personally aware of it Tril, you must understand that I am skeptical. * Kaufmann/#tunes pokes Tril Are you listening? 12:50pm well, Wednesday evenings are meetings where people share healings and benefits they have gotten from prayer Tril, so? you could find a nearby Christian Science Church and attend a meeting. You don't understand. I'm in Brazil. we have churches worldwide. I'm sure there's one there. (or more than one) or is there a state religion? I'm sorry if I didn't know about your laws. And even if I did see something unusual, I still wouldn't be very much inclined to believe. Because there will still be more reasonable explanations for the evidence, such as deceit or the psychosomatic effect. we are not subversives, if a country does not allow a church my law we won't challenge that. s/my/by/ Tril, no, there's alleged religious freedom in Brazil... but it's a VERY BIG country. If there is a CS church, odds are it's in S�o Paulo, which is 500km away. yes, but why does the psychosomatic effect work? is that the one where you take sugar pills? Tril, because the mind has limited control over the chemicals that reside in its body but you think they are something else Tril, that's related The sugar pill is a placebo right, that's the word oh, right (looks up psychosomatic) when someone believes they are ill but it's all in their mind The psychosomatic effect is the limited power that a person's mind can exert, through complicated neurochemical processes, in its body. Such as getting ill, or getting better. But the PS effect is one thing. To say that sheer thought can cause an effect upon external reality is quite another. yes, it is 01:00pm So, aside from this, are you regular Christians? depends what you mean Do you believe in God? Are you Biblical literalists? Do you believe in an afterlife? Um, my informant Fran�ois Tremblay tells me you are "the ones who pray over children instead of having them cured. they kill lots of children." Care to comment? yes, no, yes I don't think "lots" is accurate. just that media publicizes those cases "lots". Do you believe that everything the Bible says is true? not the literal words. Its inspired meaning, yes (i.e if you understand what it is saying) Do you think it's the word of God? no, ti's the word of people, who were often inspired by God 01:10pm Why do you believe in God? hmm. me? or my religion 01:20pm Should there be a difference? belief in God is just belief that everything is good. I'm a positive person! How is belief in God just belief that everything is good? The two are completely unrelated. ok, we beleive that God is good I left that part out :) and God is everywhere 01:30pm Okay, back Um, I forgot to ask you... what do you call "God"? well, the Judaic idea of one Creator who made all things.. the Christian idea just adds that God is all good. What is your definition of "good"? all the standard general definitions seem ok * Fare/#Tunes is here hi Fare we're off-topic here Fare, care to join the discussion? ok. I'm right, and if you disagree, you're wrong. I think that settles the point. Next topic? Tril, there is no standard definition. Objectively, morality (good and evil) is relative; a person measures value based on benefit to him or herself. So, according to whom is God good? Fare, good point. 01:40pm that's a selfish reason .. God is good to all the universe reality is relative, too. That doesn't make it a meaningless concept, or one subject to complete arbitrariness of point of view Tril, selfishness is the guiding principle of thought Fare, reality is not relative. Our perceptions of reality are relative. s/reality/morality/g Fare, thankee thankee? Kaufmann: I meant the ones in the dictionary as "standard": "of favourable character or tendency", "free from injury or disease", "that can be relied on", profitable, advantageous, agreeable, pleasant, salutary, wholesome, amusing, clever, considerable, full, well-founded, cogent, deserving of respect etc etc short for "thank you" I mean, what for? Tril, all those things are relative. What can be "salutary" to one isn't necessarily "salutary" to another Fare, for making that statement into one with which I agree Kaufmann: God is the universal good, which is absolute. That's the definition. I'm telling you. You can't argue with it because it's a definition. Kaufman: didn't you agree with what you said yourself before I made a string replacement in it? no i think he just agrees with both of them Tril: but how do you match this definition with other definitions of "God"? Tril: someone who did lots of stuff like that is Spinoza Tril, that's kinda circular, isn't it? What is God? God is the universal good. What is good? Good is whatever is from God. Fare: if the other definition contradicts it, they must be different definitions Fare, I did Tril, there is no universal good. but actually, if you try to type what he says, you see that the word "God" is an overloaded polymorphic symbol; Kaufmann: it's not a circular definition. What is good for each creature may vary, but God provides all those individual benefits. Kaufmann: maybe there is. It's just that this good is not accessible to our minds Kaufmann: It's ok if you don't believe in a universal good, I'm just answering your question about what I believe. I have no problem with definitions; only with shifting the definition of a given word during some reasoning Tril, what about the bad things? the good things are infinitely more powerful Tril, that depends on your PoV Anyway, I don't feel like discussing this. I'm going away now. well, you mean that is my point of view now you know what it is since you asked. go away happy :) -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein) Self-quote: I won't tell you if I believe in God, because I don't even know what _you_ mean by God. However I'll tell you that I never consider any name holy, as names are given by humans. 01:50pm fair enough a few days ago, I met that vietnamese poet who spent over 30 years in the communist jails. but if you read this log you could see what I meant by God he was a poet? ok I asked him how it was possible to keep hope when in Hell (as he calls the communist prison camps). He answered: to keep hope in Hell, you must believe in God; you must have absolute faith in the ultimate victory of Good over Evil. good answer With such a definition of God, I'd say I do believe in God, too. Of course, this is nothing like the petty judeo-christian notions of God. I'd say it's concordant with my notion of God I got a laptop, but it won't run Linux because it has 2MB of RAM :(