IRC log started Sun Jul 18 00:00:01 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0718
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<_ruiner_> greetings all
<_ruiner_> kool-aid and pizza to you all
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<_ruiner_> hello
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12:20am
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!Hyrlik:*! ahhahahahah
!netgod:*! regularly scheduled mental breakdown?
!HyrliK:*! YES, I'm switchin from grave yard to day shift at work and I'm tripping!
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<hcf> abi: Logical Frameworks is at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/fp/www/lfs-cmu.html
05:30am
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<s_r> hey smkl
<smkl> hello s_r
07:10am
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<water> hello all
<smkl> hi water
08:00am
<water> rkt?
<smkl> ??
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<water> in the topic, it mentions 'rkt' with a url
<water> i'm looking at the hp now
<water> this seems like a very good idea
08:10am
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<water> hi storm
<water> fare: here?
08:30am
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<water> hi bin
09:00am
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<s_r> does anyone know what is meant by "component-based" system?
<water> sure
<water> it's between "modular" and "fine-grained oo"
<s_r> ach
<s_r> this is too confusing
<water> what is? i didn't try to explain it at all
<s_r> i'm reading the XCOM specification
<s_r> i don't understand what core means when he talks about components
<s_r> black boxes
<water> oh
<s_r> that are loaded regardless of their position
<water> regardless of position? what dos he mean by position?
<s_r> read the XCOM specification
<s_r> i don't know either
<water> no thanks
<water> :)
<smkl> position might mean their physical address
<water> i guess
09:40am
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<water> hi
<dremspide> Nothing is free anymore
<water> huh?
<water> lots of things are free
<dremspide> free reflective computing system
<water> ah
<dremspide> like what
<water> open-source projects are all free
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<s_r> wtf?
* water/#tunes shrugs
<water> i tried
<s_r> haha
<s_r> abi: be water
<abi> wow
<s_r> abi: be water
<abi> you don't realize how much you're de-sensitized to the infrastructure
<binEng> be?
<abi> somebody said be was marketing beos as a media os and not a game os
<binEng> yes, hut...
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<tmf> hi
<water> tmf!
<s_r> tinted mother freak?
<binEng> abi: be s_r
<abi> qz is brix out yet? is it? come on! i need it NOW
<s_r> abi: be binEng
<binEng> e
<binEng> abi: be s_r
<abi> qz is brix out yet? is it? come on! i need it NOW
* binEng/#tunes wonders over the 'be' feature of abi
10:00am
<tmf> abi: be tmf
<s_r> abi: binEng?
<abi> binEng is a member of UniOS and TPP and can be reached at mailto:bineng@bespin.cx or working on AKOS
<water> abi be bineng
<water> abi: be bineng
* binEng/#tunes already *is* ;)
<s_r> she doesn't have "be" entries for most of us yet
<water> oh
<water> i guess that i talk a lot here
<water> :)
<tmf> water, how is progress?
<water> well, for the next two weeks, i'll be writing like crazy at sea
* binEng/#tunes says: bye bye for now
<tmf> have you gotten anywhere with the smalltalk implementation of the arrow world?
<water> tmf: do you have my squeak file?
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<water> tmf: i haven't updated it in a month
<tmf> I looked at it but I never got to test it.
<tmf> don't think I have it now
<water> ok. it doesn't do much. the documentation is really the best part of it, although the code exposes arrow logic and such
<tmf> are there any example aplications in the docs - I would really like to see a problem solved with it
<water> tmf: not yet. the system requires a certain kind of environment to be able to use it effectively
<water> tmf: that's what i've been working on lately
<tmf> ok, is it some kind of virtual machine?
<water> is what some kind of VM?
<water> the arrow code is the vm right now
<tmf> the environment that it has to run in.
<water> i'm saying that i need a bunch of arrows organized in a particular way in order to build the things i know are necessary for what arrow is good for
<water> i.e. an 'arrow heap'
<tmf> ok, a kind of bootstrap.
10:10am
<water> yes, but a different kind of bootstrap than what normally has to be done
<water> honestly, someone should write a language-independent bootstrapping HOWTO
<water> abi: howto?
<abi> water: i don't know
<water> abi: howtos?
<abi> howtos are at http://metalab.unc.edu/LDP/HOWTO/
<water> abi: asm howto?
<abi> water: wish i knew
<water> thanks, abi
<abi> pas de quoi water
<tmf> water, it you feel suited to write a general bootstrap HOWTO, then you should!
<water> i probably will
<water> of course, Fare will object
<tmf> yeah, it's all been done before
<water> well, this one hasn't
<tmf> your right, but I think "bootstrapping" is considered a neccasary evil that just sticks its head up once in a while - I don't think its condidered a special subject.
<tmf> ( I think it is )
<water> yep, the LDP definitely doesn't help with language bootstrapping
<water> brb
10:20am
<tmf> btw: what does "brb" mean?
<water> be right back :)
<water> i'm back
<tmf> ok:)
* water/#tunes checks out some final bits of research he's been meaning to download before he goes to sea
10:30am
<water> what're you up to, tmf?
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<tmf> I'm still working on TML/TOOL and I hope I'll finnish it.
<water> k
10:40am
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<water> hello olo
10:50am
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<s_r> i can't win, even with these four aces
<hcf> heh
<water> hehe
<water> not my favorite rock group, but still a good line
<s_r> i'm a razor blade slitting through a wrist of hate
<s_r> water: do you know what song that's from?
<water> hmm. i don't recall the song's name, but my friend would
<water> Kid Rock's the group, of course
<water> what's up, sr?
<s_r> that group rocks
<water> sort of
<s_r> i think i understand XCOM
<s_r> a bit
<s_r> but i still have to figure out how to implement a complete object system
* water/#tunes wonders if that is sucha good thing.
<s_r> i want to completely integrate the language with the OS
<s_r> an OS dedicated to processing the language
<s_r> it's going to be really _hard_ to do
<water> hehe
11:20am
<hcf> water: icuc, Logical Frameworks @ http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/fp/www/lfs-cmu.html, Proof-Carrying Code @ http://foxnet.cs.cmu.edu/people/petel/papers/pcc/pcc.html, MESS, Semantics-based Implementation of PLs @ http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/fox/member/petel/www/papers/mess.html
<water> whoa
* water/#tunes reels over from the url onslaught
<s_r> water: what kind of bands do you like?
* water/#tunes mutters from underneath the tons of papers, "Thanks."
<s_r> hcf: is your OS going to be object-oriented?
<hcf> s_r: wow, u used a colon
<water> sr: some guitar rock, much of the sophisticated electronica out there, acid jazz, classical, ...
<s_r> hcf: wow, you responded
<hcf> s_r: my os isnt detailed at all atm
<water> sr: port a language VM into an OS
<s_r> i am unclear on the concept of a VM
<water> vm?
<water> darn
<s_r> i understand that it's a virtual machine
<hcf> s_r: seen the tunes-rev-vm page?
<water> vm is a kind of interpreter, usually for bytecodes or language primitives
<s_r> but how can a virtual machine exist in an operating environment if every access method is on the same level as the OS?
<water> sr: just make an os that runs interpreter threads in every process
<water> sr: and make a safe compiler for the os
11:30am
<s_r> water: you could write a hacker's compiler
<water> sr: anyone could, since gcc is open-source
<water> sr: if you write the safe compiler in the language it compiles, it will probably be easier to check for safety
<s_r> we could force all programs to be compiled by the trusted compiler
<water> yep. or just make the trusted compiler implicit
<s_r> i think i'm going to message fare asking for access to his 3 gig mp3 archive
<water> heh. sure
<s_r> fare's a warez maven
<water> bbiaf
<s_r> i think he got a 17 gig hard drive just to support his warez habit
11:40am
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<water> back
<water> hcf is gone! :(
12:00pm
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<water> atg!
<AlonzoTG> wut?
<water> just saying hi
<water> and bye, since i won't be back for a few weeks
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12:30pm
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<water> this is pretty quiet for a full room
<AlonzoTG> om (hmm)
* AlonzoTG/#tunes needs koan that will phit in story
* water/#tunes doesn't have one on hand.
<water> isn't there a Zen resource site?
<water> do a net search
<AlonzoTG> hmm
<AlonzoTG> good idea
12:40pm
<water> i've definitely learned a lot from language standards specifications to apply to my arrow bootstrapping process
<water> namely, to NOT include useful code :)
<water> of course, my greatest task is to create an environment for developing ontologies
<water> without making it unnecessarily restrictive
<hcf> an onto-ide ;)
<water> basically, yeah
<water> the graph idea is most of what's needed, actually
<water> i just need to get this whole 'reflection' and 'relativisation' of ontologies idea down
<water> and also to provide clean support for an arrow environment over my Squeak code
12:50pm
<water> i should also provide a few simple ontologies for user-interface, etc, but those will be highly arbitrary
<hcf> water: whats ur defn of an expert system?
<water> hmm.
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-:- Topic for #TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System <http://www.tunes.org> || slim <http://birch.eecs.lehigh.edu/slim/> || chaos <http://www.chaosdev.org> || rkt <http://www.mibsoftware.com/reuse/index.html>
-:- topic set by hcf [Sat Jul 17 19:41:55 1999]
-:- [Users(#Tunes:13)] 
[ TUNES     ] [ smoke     ] [ hcf       ] [ AlonzoTG  ] [ abi       ] 
[@Tril      ] [ s_r       ] [ water     ] [ smkl      ] [ Mr_Wrong  ] 
[ Fare      ] [ Plundis   ] [ Crimson   ] 
(water/#tunes) you mean what kind of expert system would i want, or how i would characterize existing expert systems?
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<hcf> both i guess
<water> well, the first answer is simple: one that manages arrows of information in a completely noiseless manner, and that accepts as many arrows of information as hardware allows
<water> as for the second, most are simple databases of logic programs with static simple representation schemes that only provide information that is manually entered and/or derived by a static inference scheme. furthermore, it only provides information to people with a statically-assumed base level of knowledge in ways that are not re-usable.
<water> whew!
<water> :)
<hcf> ;)
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<water> wb bin
<hcf> sounds like abi would qualify for #2
<water> hehe
<water> yep
<water> of course, if you include abi's programmers with abi as a unit, then you can get a hack for #1
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<hcf> but abi handles information, not knowledge
<water> well, you'd have to include users marginally, too
<hcf> i thot e.s. was about knowledge
<water> right, that's why it takes the users as well
<water> if abi is a knowledge system, then part of your mind is abi
<water> sorry, i'm into some pretty odd logic (as far as society is concerned)
01:00pm
<hcf> so basically, abi needs an inference engine?
<water> sort of
<water> to me, knowledge requires being able to spontaneously draw metaphors and assess their utility
<water> arbitrary kinds of metaphors
<hcf> hmm
<hcf> have u surveyed inference engines?
<water> not completely
<hcf> i'd like something simple
<water> some metaphors require infinitary pattern-matching, which is just beyond algorithmic machine's capabilities
<water> oh
<water> hcf: for queries or exploration?
<hcf> at least queries
<water> hmm
<water> abi-style?
<abi> water: i haven't a clue
01:10pm
<hcf> at least abi-style
<water> abi: i know that you don't have style! :)
<abi> :P
<water> what would we use inferences for that a bot could handle?
<water> abi: :P
<hcf> not sure
<water> ooh
<water> what if abi accessed search engines?
<hcf> which ones?
<hcf> er, which sort
<water> sorry, making sandwiches
<water> web searches
<hcf> what would be gained from such
<water> metacrawler maybe or that other one that works well
<hcf> it would take a lot heavier nlp for such wouldnt it?
* water/#tunes could be truly lazy and not switch windows to do searches :)
<hcf> oic
<hcf> but
<water> hehe
<hcf> thats where i come in
<hcf> unless ur talking very simple searches
<water> it was just an idea
<hcf> s/very/very very/
<hcf> iv had the idea
<hcf> rigging abi up to a perl mod for alta searching
<hcf> how inference involved?
<hcf> s/how/hows/
<water> it really wouldn't be, except for word associations
<water> like the words in abi's factoids
<hcf> i wouldnt want searches based on whats in the factoids
<hcf> too much garbage
<water> yeah i guess so
01:20pm
<water> well, that's enough meta-channel talk for me
<hcf> meta-channel talk?
<water> talk about the tools we use (i.e. abi and replacements thereof)
<hcf> i didnt think it was that meta, but ok i guess
<hcf> just #tunes happens to use an infobot
<hcf> i was about to get off the search thing
<water> oh ok
<hcf> is a prolog-ish manner of doing inference ok?
<water> sure
<hcf> i obviously know little of this topic
<hcf> have found, ftp://ftp.cpan.org/pub/CPAN/modules/by-module/Language/Prolog-alpha.tar.gz
<hcf> tho it seemingly lacks docs
<water> what's it for?
<hcf> its prolog interpreter in perl
<water> oh
<water> you shouldn't give me url's if you don't expect me to use them
<hcf> sorry ;)
01:30pm
<water> i'm like pavlov's dog now: i see a url in an irc window, and i just open it
<water> :(
<hcf> http://www.navicom.net/~flaagg/necrhi.htm
<hcf> brb
<water> what's that? :)
<water> hey!
* water/#tunes resolves to take revenge on hcf.
<hcf> back
<water> damn you!
<hcf> :P
<water> i didn't take the link immediately, but you didn't tell me what it was
<water> of course, you could have fibbed anyway
<hcf> sorry, i shouldnt abuse ur habit like that
<hcf> but i had to do it just once
<water> hehe. no prob
<hcf> anyway
<hcf> givme an example of a simple inference rule that abi could use
<water> i don't know what you want to do with an inference engine
<hcf> add a bit of smartness
01:40pm
<water> probably a nat-lang parser would be the best app for abi
<hcf> yeah
<hcf> hmm, lights flickering
<hcf> i may go soon
<water> k
<water> no prob
<water> bye all
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01:50pm
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<s_r> seen core
02:10pm
<s_r> ultra
<s_r> ultra?
<abi> ultra is http://www.box.net.au/~matty/ultra/
02:20pm
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<AlonzoTG> =\
<binEng> hi alonz
<s_r> hey Alonzo, how's your OS progressing?
<AlonzoTG> =\
<AlonzoTG> suckey
<AlonzoTG> gonna break the piggy bank tomorrow to fiks me kar...
02:30pm
<binEng> :)
<AlonzoTG> if I have any left over I will spend it on prototype development
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02:40pm
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<s_r> <AlonzoTG> if I have any left over I will spend it on prototype development
<s_r> he funds his own project
<water> so do i :)
<s_r> water do you know where i can get some snes roms
<s_r> besides going to lycos.com and searching
<s_r> :)
<water> hehe
<water> sure
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<water> http://www.top-66.com/emu/index.html
<water> oh wait
<water> it didn't load
<water> ?
<s_r> i should wait for those people in #warezoldies to get the rom servers up
<s_r> it's amazing how many dead links you find in a roms compilation page
<water> i have more, hold on
<s_r> i wonder if Nintendo(c) actually goes through these pages and gets rid of them
<water> it seems that they were bullied
<water> i'll find my other links
02:50pm
<s_r> i'm annoyed with Netscape
<s_r> i think i'm going to write my own browser for X11
<water> gosh, it's been a while since i went rom-hunting
<s_r> hmmm so water likes games?
<water> sure, why not?
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<s_r> i'm packing up my stuff and i'm going to head out west
<water> well, i've found my abandonware links
<s_r> let's see
<s_r> the best snes roms:
<s_r> contra 3
<s_r> ff6
<s_r> bomberman
<s_r> final fight 2
<s_r> breath of fire 2
<s_r> donkey kong
<water> bleh. cookie-cutter games
<_QZ> stop it
<s_r> fzero
<water> fzero's all right
<s_r> water i've been contemplating this idea fare introduced me to
<s_r> the trusted compiler/tunes stuff
<water> what's that?
<water> ah
<water> for no-kernel?
<s_r> yeah
<s_r> i still think i could make nokernel with hardware protection
<s_r> water how's arrow system progressing?
<water> it will do much better while i am at sea and away from this channel
<water> for the next two weeks
<binEng> water: you can't irc while at sea?
<water> nope
<water> only good net interface is email, because it is not realt-time
<s_r> QZ: do you have quake 2?
03:00pm
<_QZ> no but i have hl
-:- ElGato [thrustit@209-68-229-50.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes
<s_r> a #tunes deathmatch would be cool
<s_r> but i doubt many here play games
<water> sr: don't doubt it
<water> sr: but maybe shoot'em ups aren't their cup of tea
* binEng/#tunes plays q & q2. or used to...
* water/#tunes plays a little Blaster Master and Zelda x now and then.
<water> sr: what about trusted compilers?
<water> s_r? still there?
03:10pm
<water> i wonder if all of the text-processing could be removed from a computer system and still have it be powerful and efficient
<water> ?
<water> sort of like how the macintosh doesn't have basic text services, and does it all with various fonts, but used a systems programming language that was entirely visual?
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<core> people hi
<_QZ> CORE!
<ElGato> core!
<core> wow, what a welcome ;)
<ElGato> long time no see
<core> hey Qz, how goes :)
<core> elgato: hi! yeah, indeed.
<_QZ> goes good
<water> hi core
<core> qz: cool :) (i still read the irc logs, so i follow things a bit :)
<core> water: hi! (ah, finally, an island of intelligence in the digital sea of stupidity :)
<water> wow! a compliment. thank you
<core> water: deserved :)
<water> i don't know you well enough, but you seem pretty intelligent from what i've heard
<core> (not that i mean anyone else is stupid. more like the net in general)
<core> water: mmm.. must have talked to the wrong persons :-)
<water> what's news, core?
<core> water: oh, still working on clementine; it'll be opensourced this fall, i'm signing agreements with suits. and it's starting to look good even to _me_ :)
<water> abi clementine?
<water> abi: clementine?
<_QZ> abi is lagged
<core> water: my friend who works on intelligent agents is quite grateful to you for your arrow paper, it apparently enlightened him quite
<water> really? wow!
* water/#tunes does a little victory dance
<core> hehe
<water> someone understood my paper without my help!
<abi> clementine is probably a modular OS being written by core (mailto:core@tunes.org)
<abi> clementine is a modular OS being written by core (mailto:core@tunes.org)
<water> ahh
<_QZ> === CTCP PING reply from abi : 64.331 seconds
<core> water: well, he was describing something so similar to arrow it wasn't even funny, so i pointed him to your paper :)
<water> what's clementine's architecture?
<ElGato> abi: abi is also lagged :(
<abi> that is too long, ElGato
<ElGato> abi: bad girl
<abi> spank me ElGato
<water> core: what's the guy's email?
<core> water: decentralized . perfectible (graining-wise) but getting there
<core> water: yohm@worldnet.fr, i think i already told you about him
<water> core: like exokernel?
<core> water: he speaks good english, so don't worry about the .fr
<water> k
<ElGato> core: "he speaks english well" <- the proper form
<core> water: well, i associate exokernel with very small supervisor primitives and the rest running as unprivilegied, which is not really what i do. more like everything does its own little thing, supervisor or not :)
<water> i'll be at sea for the next two weeks, so i will focus more on writing
<core> elgato: thanks :)
<ElGato> core: no problem dude3
<water> core: ok
<core> water: yeah, i saw that in an email to the list (i think), that's good.. isolation is good for the mind i think.
03:30pm
<core> water: but i try to make it so that components do not worry about irrelevant details such as what mode they run on, if they're running as a seperate thread or not, etc. . those policies belongs to the user.
<s_r> core, in clementine, you designed it to be nokernel. did you use a trusted compiler to achieve this?
<water> core: should be interesting to study
<s_r> how did you implement "nokernel"?
<core> s_r: when fare will have written his compiler, that's eventually how it will be (only running safe code, not using hardware protection at all)
<ElGato> "nokernel" is far fetched i think
<core> s_r: "no kernel" is more like "exploded kernel"; ie. independent components that run as privilegied code, or not.
<water> el gato: you don't have much room to talk
<core> s_r: ie, there are components that act as a scheduler, as a memory manager, etc. that indeed enforce rules, but they are replacable, can be migrated, etc.
<water> el gato: of course, neither do i
<s_r> yes that trusted compiler idea is Fare's?
<ElGato> water: ;)
<s_r> i'm torn between using the trusted compiler design and the idea of trusted objects
<core> s_r: he has fathered the idea in my mind anyway. Fare is very bright, but admits himself that he doesn't put his ideas in practice often :)
<s_r> still have _a lot_ of thinking to do
<s_r> i'm definitely not as far as you
<core> s_r: incremental replacement works.
<core> s_r: well, i work on it all day.
<s_r> cool
<s_r> i read your XCOM specification
<s_r> i have a question aboutit
<core> s_r: is it clear enough? i'm not much of a writer
<core> s_r: sure, shoot away
<s_r> do you define  "data" and "text" areas
<s_r> as continuious blocks of memory
<s_r> ?
<s_r> continuous
<s_r> ehh
<core> s_r: well, an individual section is contiguous (logically anyway), but you can have many of both
<s_r> or are data and text split into objects that are placed in no particular order?
<s_r> ok that's what i thought
<core> s_r: there's no need for a particular order
<s_r> i like that idea
<s_r> because they are partitioned into objects :)
<s_r> true OO is cool
<ElGato> i like the idea of no distinction between data and code
<core> s_r: xcom has been made so that it'll be easy to incrementally introduce objects that are compiled into safe code at runtime or something.
<core> elgato: well, that's being reflexive. one of the ultimate goals of Tunes, and one that arrows addresses well
<water> the only problem with mixing actual code with data is cache-misses (sorry, but i've coded on a high-performance 3d graphics engines, and old habits die hard)
<core> water: you have my respect :) i do worry about performance as well.
<ElGato> water: well just align it in the best possible way
<water> core: but if the object is stored at a high-level and not as a memory-space, then there is no problem, but most people don't consider that
<s_r> water you've coded 3d graphics engines?
<water> sr: yeah
<s_r> what kind of work in 3d graphics have you done: demos?
<s_r> any demos?
<water> sr: mostly demos and engines, no games
<core> water: yeah, i hope that ultimately everything is stored as high-level objects; for bootstrap, the necessary objects to achieve it can be pre-compiled to low level
<ElGato> i sure wish fare would wake up
<core> water: i hope xcom can act as a low-level transport for that; maybe it's even too versatile, but only experience will tell
<core> i coded the 3D graphics engine for ubisoft's tonic trouble, but don't tell anyone.
<s_r> core: so how far is clementine?
<ElGato> i coded the first UNIX kernel but don't tell anyone
<ElGato> bell labs will have my ass
<Mr_Wrong> I wrote VMS.
<Mr_Wrong> But don't tell anyone.
<core> *shrug* i don't like the idea of pink rabbits walking on my 3d engine.
<ElGato> oh yeah well i invented LISP but don't tell anyone
<core> s_r: well, all base components and development tools are in place
03:40pm
<ElGato> Mr_wrong: VMS sucked!
<water> i had this 3d space engine with a combined sz buffer and convex-hull based objects
<Mr_Wrong> Whatever you say, ElGato.
<ElGato> Mr_Wrong: whered you learn to could?! ;)
<s_r> Mr: do you have a VAX?
<ElGato> code rather
<core> s_r: devt tools are being improved and more components are being written.. in one or two months there should be something to really play with
<core> i should really update the OS review
<ElGato> i was also one of the first critiques of cobol
<ElGato> but no one would listen to me :\
<water> core: just email review@tunes.org
<ElGato> i sure have seen a lot
<s_r> water i'm sending you a nice demo
<water> no thanks, sr
<water> my demos are fast enough for me
<core> water: well, i have collected a bunch of URLs and basically i just have to do a cvs commit, but i'm in orbit lately and can't seem to find a minute for anything besides work and the girl.
<water> core: sure, just mail 'em and we'll split up the labour
* ElGato/#tunes is assuming "the girl" means clementine ;)
<core> elgato: hehe, no, clementine == work; the girl is an actual flesh and blood one.
<core> water: okay, i suppose it'd be best if i did that :)
<water> all os coders should have girlfriends. balance in life is good
<ElGato> uh yeah water
<core> water: sometimes i feel like some of the links i put are completely uninteresting (burgeoning, barely bootstrapped OSes that won't get very far) but .. the review has always been very wide
* ElGato/#tunes wishes ;)\
<core> water: i completely agree
<core> water: she forces me to take a step back and see the big picture, as they say.
<water> core: very cool. i do that for myself, but it takes a lot out of me
<ElGato> uh theat '\' was an accident
<core> water: i would, too, but she makes it easy. usually just taking a break from coding makes me find the best solution to a problem i wasn't really grasping
<ElGato> it could be misleading
<core> (and she wants a LOT of breaks :P)
<water> hehe
<core> she gets mad when my mind suddenly clicks and we're in the shower tho.
<ElGato> core: then why do you call her "the girl"?
<core> oh well :)
<ElGato> wouldn't it be "my girl"?
<water> now, if only i could find an interested (and interesting) girl
<core> elgato: i don't. her name is Jen, i didn't want to flood you with information
<core> elgato: she's the only one on earth for me ;)
<ElGato> core: cool
<core> water: you are very bright. women dig that :)
* ElGato/#tunes high fives core
* core/#tunes ^5's elgato not really knowing what he said
<water> core: not the ones i know. they dig smart friends, never smart lovers
<core> water: you'll find one that does. jen doesn't always understand what i do but she's proud of it nonetheless
<ElGato> uh girls don't dig smart guys
<core> elgato: some do anyway. go for them.
<ElGato> not in california at least
<core> water: and i'm sure you can use your obvious intelligence to pick up women :-)
<water> core: well anyway, i'll contact your friend and try to collaborate with him
<ElGato> over here most of the good looking girls go for dumbasses
<core> water: cool :) i hope something useful comes out of it. he's quite bright, or at least i think so
<water> core: besides, it's about time i tried to improve the ai community
<core> elgato: then go for some who are a little (apparently anyway) less good looking *shrug* i don't know
<core> water: he's deep into ai, socialising agents, and things like that
<water> core: rather than these hick-coders ;)
<_QZ> ElGato: find a butt freakin ugly girl and im sure she wont care if yer dumb or smart :)
<water> brb
<core> water: heheh
<ElGato> im deep into ai :)
<core> _qz: lol, that'd work
<core> _qz: well, girls are genetically programmed to be picky tho.
<_QZ> ElGato: oh well yer just fucked then :)
03:50pm
<_QZ> ElGato: and not sexually
<ElGato> i guess so :\
<ElGato> qz: go on roger wilco
<ElGato> and tell me i'm fucked up there
<core> _qz: no new downloadable image yet?
<_QZ> ElGato: no
<_QZ> core: not yet
<ElGato> qz: yes
<core> _qz: damn :)
<_QZ> ElGato: u wanting to head my voice makes me think yer gay
<_QZ> s/head/hear
<ElGato> uhhh
<ElGato> no it's just funny
<ElGato> cause i know how old you are now
<core> you can just ask me if you want that kind of info :P
<water> back
<_QZ> core: who u tlaking to?
<core> _qz: elgato :)
<ElGato> core: what kind of info?
-:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ...')
<core> elgato: age etc.
<ElGato> oh
<_QZ> shhh
-:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Ping timeout for s_r[phila-dialup104.nni.com])
<core> _qz: not YOURS :)
<ElGato> how old are you core?
<core> elgato: 23
<ElGato> ahhh
<ElGato> s_r is like 17 or something
<core> i guess most tunesers are young
<water> the oldest is 25 i think
<core> that should be Fare :)
<ElGato> core: nah
<core> or tril, i don't know how old david is.
<_QZ> fare is 25
<water> also hcf is 25
<_QZ> hcf is not 25
<core> well, that's pretty young.
<water> no?
<ElGato> core: we have a 14, 16 and 17 year old and everyone else is in their 20's
<water> bleh
<_QZ> i think he is like 20
<core> obviously at 23 i didn't do a PhD. but i live it quite well.
<core> elgato: yeah, oh well, age doesn't matter much
<ElGato> core: finally someone has some sense :)
* ElGato/#tunes ^5's core again :D
<core> it matters for the motivation, ie. how hard you'll want to keep working on a given project.. i suppose.
<ElGato> :|
<core> but i suppose you can be young and clued.
<core> not that i know what i'm talking about at all :)
<ElGato> whatever
<ElGato> respect should be given by results
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<water> wb
<core> elgato: i respect papers and code, not empty talk, yes
<core> re s_r
<ElGato> wb s_r
<ElGato> der's dat hoe dat stole my shmack
04:00pm
<core> elgato: (i assume you're the 14yo one) what are you working on?
<ElGato> core: yeah im hoping to work on the i386 subproject
<ElGato> if fare ever wakes up
<_QZ> core: what gave that away? :)
<core> elgato: the i386 LLL?
<core> _qz: lol
<ElGato> core: no the actual subproject
<core> _qz: hmm.. deduction :-)
<ElGato> qz and core: well im pretty damn open about my young age
<core> elgato: yeah, it's a subproject of the LLL
<ElGato> er yeah
<ElGato> just some tunes low level stuff
<core> elgato: but tunes' low level isn't completely specified at high level yet. be prepared for many rewrites.
<ElGato> core: oh well
<core> elgato: fare is not likely to wake up at 1:17 AM unless he's in vacation
<core> i should be sleeping at that time, but i'm not tired yet
<ElGato> core: i don't know much about scheme yet so i can't do much on the HLL
<core> elgato: well, try to see with tom novelli then (tcn@tunes.org), he has probably the closest thing to a tunes LLL so far (bootstrapping into forth). i hope tunes can make use of my project too and it can become an useful framework for migrating components for them, but..
<ElGato> yeah
<core> some of tunes ideas will only work well in large address spaces though
<core> (> 2^32)
<ElGato> so?
<water> i hope otherwise
<water> well, for other than the distributed stuff
<core> water: me too, but when Fare talks about running safe code in a single, nonpaged address space, we both know 2^32 will be tight
<ElGato> hah!
<water> hmm. yes
<ElGato> like hell 
<ElGato> flat mm is dumb
<core> water: but that's only a temporary problem
<core> elgato: if you run checked, safe code, you don't need hardware mm
* water/#tunes thinks ElGato speaks of what he does not know.
* ElGato/#tunes thinks water is wrong
<core> elgato: since the code has been verified not to screw up, there is no need to perform a costy, runtime checking in hardware.
<core> elgato: if you run unsafe code (ie, C, asm etc), you _need_ hardware protection of course though.
<water> core: sure, once a good tunes code-management model is developed
<ElGato> how do you know the code is verified ie not everyone will use fare's compiler
<water> elgato: the compiler will be _in_ that address space
<core> elgato: unsafe (regular) code would run in its own space
<ElGato> hmmm
<core> elgato: only trusted (safely compiled) code would run in the common 'trusted' space
<core> water: well, it'll come incrementally. we won't have the one true model at first attempt
<ElGato> then again though what keeps someone from runnin c compiled code in the trusted space ?
<core> elgato: the fact you can't check arbitrary C code for safety
<water> core: ever considered the metaphor of inverting a virtual memory scheme in order to produce persistence?
<core> elgato: C has inferent pointers
04:10pm
<core> water: oh, like having a big address space that encompasses physical storage?
<ElGato> core: so?
<water> core: sure, but also considering paging in that context
<core> elgato: so you cannot scan C code and validate it as safe or not.
<core> water: yeah, with a big enough space, it'd work
<ElGato> it still doesn't mean  someone won't *say* the code is safe and then run it in the trusted memory
<water> k
<core> water: you could then use RAM as cache instead of having the programmer make an irrelevant difference between ram and disk or whatnot
<water> elgato: that's what fare means by a low-level safety model
<core> elgato: only the system (or the administrator, i guess) can say some piece of code is safe.
<ElGato> core: oh
<ElGato> well that'd work
<water> core: right, and a journaling mechanism for returning computed results quickly to the store
<core> elgato: something like Java (if the runtime wasn't such a piece of crap) can be checked like that, because it doesn't have arbitrary pointers
<core> water: and even rollback :)
<water> core: oh yeah
<ElGato> you can be sure as hell that if tunes became popular someone would try to exploit it
<core> elgato: you cannot exploit something that can be verified _for sure_ to be safe or not
<water> elgato: let them. tunes will be too easy to extend for them to keep up
<core> elgato: exploits come from the fact that code is checked by humans, not machines
<_QZ> core: but is the check code not made by humans?
<ElGato> hell why not
<core> elgato: you could still exploit the legacy C code if it uses any privileges, but not the checked bits.
<ElGato> but human stupidity is always a problem
<core> _qz: the check code would be the compiler; it would enforce the same rules that are part of the language. but point taken :)
<ElGato> let's hope the reflection on the HLL will protect us :)
<ElGato> water: well in that case i guess flat mm isn't dumb if code is safe :)
<core> _qz: indeed the java people overlooked something that led to exploits in the first JVMs; but now it's apparently impossible to get around the validation code
<core> elgato: yeah, safe code is one of the point of Tunes and one of the main ideas of fare
<ElGato> k sorry
<core> elgato: if you use safe code, you can start using cooperative multitasking between the safe code parts, too, since you _know_ the code won't hold the system, either. etc..
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us910.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
<_QZ> hcf: how old are u?
<hcf> _QZ: whys it matter?
<ElGato> but will the untrusted part of memory be segmented or paged?
<_QZ> hcf: water wants to know
<core> elgato: that's an implementation detail; you can leave it to a memory manager component, and let people implement both policies, and try results
<core> elgato: as long as both methods have an identical interface
<hcf> _QZ: so?
<_QZ> hcf: so tell us
<hcf> _QZ: no
<core> hcf: they're ordering stuff with your credit card and need to give the right info ;)
<ElGato> i think hcf is afraid we're gonna come to his house and kill him or something
<ElGato> core: i see
<core> i guess beer helps me express myself :-)
<ElGato> hmmm i don't want to work on the low level LANGUAGE 
<ElGato> just some low level parts of tunes
04:20pm
<core> elgato: it's not like you have to _create_ the LLL
<ElGato> oh i know
<core> elgato: more like work on an implementation of a given language that is suitable for an LLL, and can bootstrap itself
<ElGato> oh so we have a platform to build tunes on?
* water/#tunes has been championing this sort of idea for a while
<core> elgato: yeah, although there's retro, and that i hope clementine is useful as well; and maybe it'd be better to go the O'TOP way until tunes is really specified; i don't know.
<water> yeah! like the squeak vm or something!
-:- badfishy [young439@1Cust214.tnt4.brentwood.ny.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes
<ElGato> hmmm
<water> bad fishy?
<badfishy> yes
<water> hi bad
<badfishy> hi 
<water> what brings you here?
<core> [badfishy] on #tunes #BriX
<core> another question water? ;)
<water> oh
<badfishy> I went to the brix site ;)
<badfishy> it looks interesting ;)
<water> nm then
<ElGato> uh oh
-:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-090.m2-2.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes
<water> beh!
<ElGato> don't swell qz's ego anymore
<core> hey Beholder
<Beholder> wat :)
<ElGato> hi beholder
<Beholder> hey core
<Beholder> hey elgato
<core> elgato: qz carries an "ego bag" around so he can take it with him :)
<ElGato> heh
<Beholder> wow, lotsa people here today
<ElGato> beholder: how is canada?
<core> beholder: they knew i'd drop in :)
<water> beh: most are quiet
<core> actually we just started a couple bots to make people think we're crowded
<badfishy> hi 
<abi> hola, badfishy
<Beholder> Elg:  Damn hot and sunny right now
<badfishy> hi
<abi> que tal, badfishy
<badfishy> hahah
<Beholder> wat: I see
<ElGato> oh
<ElGato> well california is still pirating .ca 
<badfishy> hi
<Beholder> elg:  Hehe, damn California... 
<core> beholder: how's uniOS ?
<Beholder> core: Very slow lately
<core> beholder: ahh.. got a new job or girl or something? :)
<badfishy> your all os developers ;)
<binEng> badfishy: you guessed it :)
<water> badfishy: not all of us
<core> badfishy: and/or idealists
<badfishy> oh
<ElGato> bad: really? you catch on quick
<badfishy> ;P
<ElGato> ;)
<water> core: hehe
<badfishy> ;)
<core> :)
<Beholder> core:  No, new project at the moment, and a job
<ElGato> actually a lot of us are language developers
<core> beholder: new project? free? what is it? :)
<water> elgato: or think we are ;)
<badfishy> really what languages are you guys developing
<Beholder> ... or game programmer/industrial automation systems specialists ;)
<water> arrows?
<abi> arrows are just objects whose only attributes are two references.
<water> arrow?
<abi> i heard arrow was a homo-iconic information representation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should. at http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/, http://www.tunes.org/~water/
04:30pm
* ElGato/#tunes kicks water for that comment
<core> xcom?
<core> :)
<core> abi, unlag for god's sake
<core> did anyone die?
<core> s/any/every/
<water> hmm
<badfishy> <------half-dead
<core> ah.. it's just that everyone stopped talking, i was wondering :P
<abi> xcom is, like, a portable component system at http://xcom.tunes.org
<abi> i don't know, core
<Beholder> wat:  so what have you been up to lately, and why are you still here? (more important question I guess ;)
<core> openprojects is as lagged as undernet with 1/1000th of the users, weird :)
<ElGato> i always wondered what the s in s/bla/blah meant
<core> elgato: man sed
<ElGato> k
<core> elgato: and man regex
<water> beh: last day on land. just getting some last-minute web-research and material
<ElGato> water: where yah sailing?
<core> elgato: that's just a habit; replaces the first expression by the second.
<water> elgato: eastern pacific, up and down america's west coast
<core> water: my girlfriend has a friend who is also in the US navy but he's stationed in australia at the moment i think
<water> core: too bad
<core> water: he doesn't know you tho :)
<ElGato> oh you're in the nave water?
<ElGato> s/nave/navy :)
<water> elgato: yep. i work on nuclear reactors
<core> water: but he didn't say a lot of good about the navy :)
<ElGato> officer or enlisted?
<water> core: no one should
<core> hehe
<water> elgato: enlisted, because i dropped out of college
<water> elgato: also because i _hate_ officers
<ElGato> heh bill gates did too :)
<badfishy> heheh :)
<core> water: i think the reason you went for the navy (you told us once) is quite courageous. how many years left now, 2 or something?
<ElGato> what are you a seaman or what? what rank?
<water> core: 2.5
<core> water: ahh.. seeing the end of the tunnel then
<water> elgato: e-5 with lots of bonuses
<badfishy> I used to be a seamen but now thats what I put on my wifes back heheh
<water> i guess i make roughly $25k/year (woohoo)
* ElGato/#tunes thinks back to his days of wanting to be in the navy. petty officers 3rd class?
<water> 2nd class
<Beholder> wat: How much weight does putting "Navy" on your resume carry when looking to apply for college, or even jobs?
<ElGato> ok
<water> beh: a lot, consider i'll wind up going to lots of technical schools and running lots of maintenance and engineering jobs here
<ElGato> my family has a proud sea going tradition
<ElGato> :)
<water> elgato: i'm not proud
<ElGato> :(
<Beholder> wat:  Well then, that's one good thing you got out of it... and Arrows of course 
<ElGato> :(:):
<core> water: another friend of mine (i have many :) was in the french navy, only for 6 months, but in a submarine, apparently it's a very good point on his resume - people know he's motivated and does things to the end, and socialises well (you HAVE to, in a submarine, i guess)
<water> beh: right. i also get a really good taste of pure evil :)
-:- SignOff badfishy: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> core: yes, that's definitely true
<ElGato> brb
04:40pm
<water> hmm. quiet again.
<Beholder> Seems so
<Beholder> Think you'll finish Arrow's Doc 2.0 on the ship this time?
<water> sure, but it definitely won't be one paper
<water> actually, i'll re-write the intro after the 5 papers are finished
<Beholder> 5 Papers?
<water> yeah, didn't you read that e-mail i sent to the list?
<water> "My Current Policy and Progress on the Arrow Paper(s)"
<Beholder> I'm checking my mail right now, maybe I missed it
<water> actually, it should be 6 papers
<water> July 1
<Beholder> Actually some people are asking me quesitons about mails I've never recieved... very strange
<binEng> would that be me?
<water> beh: i'd like to send you the paper DCC-style
<water> i mean the email
<Beholder> Ok
<Beholder> Hmm could you resend?  DCC messed up on me
04:50pm
<water> k
<water> i'm trying to resend already, not getting acknowledgement
<Beholder> Hmm... damn IRC client...
<Beholder> wat: could you e-mail it to me?
<water> i can msg you it :)
<water> yeah sure
<water> done
<Beholder> beholder@unios.dhs.org
<water> well, i use beholder@bespin.cx which should work the same
<Beholder> that's fine
<Beholder> I figured out why I can
<Beholder> ... can'
<Beholder> damn keyboard
<Beholder> Can't read your mail
<Beholder> It's on my other system
<water> ah
<Beholder> NP then, I'll read it when I get back home
<water> k
<water> i just modularized the ideas i introduced in the paper
<water> abstract ontologies, information atomization, and ontological reflection
<water> also reflective relativised arrow logic
<Beholder> Makes sense, I think it all needed more explaination
<water> all of those 4 papers will have formal and informal elements and only draw on existing research and ideas
<water> the next 2 will be mine, and mine alone
<Beholder> How so?
<water> the application of the arrow construct to information atomization, and implementing abstract ontologies on arrow
<water> because they directly describe my system's properties
<water> they define my idea
<Beholder> Ahh, the rest just leads up to it?
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<water> yes, and the former can be categorized with other research, while the latter is its own new genre
<Beam> hey everybody
<water> high beam!
<water> :)
* Beam/#tunes chuckles
05:00pm
<water> what's up, beam?
<Beam> i was feeling creative today, and was trying to figure out if page faults are accessable to user programs, or only to the kernel.
-:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Ping timeout for s_r[phila-dialup647.nni.com])
<Beam> now that i think about it... they would probably only be able to be accessed by the kernel... otherwize we'd be able to see user-level swap programs, which we never see :)
<Beholder> wat:  How goes the coding of the Arrows proto?
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<ElGato> ba k
<ElGato> back
<s_rr> water: when you say mixing data and code is not good because of cache misses
<water> beh: the vm code is as complicated as i will ever let it be
<s_rr> and then you say it would work if the objects were high level,
<s_rr> what do you mean?
<Beam> water: other then that, not much 
<water> beh: i'm thinking about the requirements for the environment to support ontologies and ontological relativisation
<ElGato> btw s_r the reason i left so abruptly last night was because my brother yelled at me and we got in a fight and i got kicked off the computer
<s_rr> heh
<water> sr: code next to data means that your i-cache will be less efficient
<water> sr: which is a result of a computing model that says that all of the object's data including code must be in this memory address range to be garbage-collected easily
<Beholder> wat: So you're having trouble implementing this point in a logical manner?
<ElGato> both of you: now let's not mold tunes for a single architecture
<water> elgato: ? huh?
<water> beh: what do you mean?
<ElGato> well not all architecures align data the same
<ElGato> plus you  can just let the compiler align the code as well as the data
<water> elgato: this is definitely NOT about architecture and byte or bit alignment
<ElGato> it isn't that hard
<ElGato> oh
<ElGato> im too late i suppose :(
<Beholder> wat:  Mod tunes for this discussion
<s_rr> but what do you mean by high-level object?
<water> k
<ElGato> who is toogam?
<water> sr: an object that does not map directly to a memory region
<s_rr> but you have to have raw data in some form
<water> right, but it doesn't have to be clumped together
<ElGato> just don't add any over head to an object
05:10pm
<water> you could collect an object heap's info into dictionaries with hash tables
<water> separate dicts for actual code, intermediate code, and raw data
<water> it depends on the application as to what is the efficient way to do it
-:- SignOff core: #TUNES (Ping timeout for core[core.suntech.fr])
<s_rr> water doesn't map directly to a memory region... you mean something in a high-level language?
<water> sure
<water> but even a hll might do the same with objects
05:20pm
<s_rr> let's say you had a data structure of several 32-bit values... and you wanted to implement that as a high level object
<s_rr> how would you do it?
<water> it would depend.
<water> i'm not saying i have answers, just that there are issues
<ElGato> s_r: doesn't that song own?
<s_rr> it's a good song
<s_rr> i'll send you a song
<s_rr> i have 433 mb of songs
<s_rr> how many do you have?
<ElGato> lemme see
<water> holy cow
<s_rr> my collection is small
<ElGato> 115mb
<s_rr> cool
<water> that's almost as much MB as my .ps.gz archive
* binEng/#tunes have a couple of gigs
<s_rr> it helps to have a faster connection and i only have a modem
* water/#tunes reels over
<water> wow!
<water> i only have a modem as well, which explains the diff
<s_rr> bineng: what kind of music do you have?
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05:30pm
<ElGato> i got some good and bad songs
<binEng> s_rr: I can send you a list, I think
<ElGato> most of em are my brother's
* ElGato/#tunes lives in the shadow of his brother ;(
<binEng> s_rr: that's ~3/4 of 'em
-:- SignOff ElGato: #TUNES (Read error to ElGato[209-68-229-50.dialup.cust.tfb.com]: Connection reset by peer)
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* Beholder/#tunes has multiple CD's worth of MP3's... probably more than bin ;)
<water> geez
<binEng> Beholder: oh yeah? how many cds? :)
<Beholder> wat:  Yeah... it's an addiction... :(
<water> i've missed the revolution, apparently
<Beholder> bin:  Right now, 5
* water/#tunes has a few mp3's and ra's
<binEng> Beholder: argh, I've got 4 :) But I'm selective.
<Beholder> bin: Well, I only have 1 the other 4 are my GF's stuff
<binEng> Beholder: I'ev got a friend with >10... but most songs there are not good (IMO)
<Beholder> :)
<Beholder> I have friends with 25 now... I don't think they even bother knowing whats on them anymore :)  Damn cable modem people :)
<water> wow. the complete trivialization of pop music. who would have thought it would happen a few years ago?
<Beholder> I think at 25 CD's they're even downloading Celine Dione and Garth Brooks <shudder>
<water> exactly
05:40pm
<Beholder> Or maybe even some old Country music... <flashbacks to sitting in the pickup with grandma and grandpa... being tortured by songs of lost love in twangy depressing voices>
<binEng> I can live without that
<ElGato> im getting dsl soon :)))
* water/#tunes imagines kids a few decades from now shuddering at the thought of sophisticated electronica
<ElGato> for $10 more a month i'll be getting 1.5 mego bits more
<ElGato> that's pretty damn good
<ElGato> "why when i was a kid all we had was 56.6k
<ElGato> "
<ElGato> "shutup old man"
<s_rr> elgato dsl?
<s_rr> but does this dsl use static ips
<s_rr> so you could have bueno-labs.com
<ElGato> don't know yet
<ElGato> yeah i'd run bueno labs
<s_rr> you could do that on a modem
<s_rr> but it'd be better with dsl
<s_rr> if you can get multiple static IPs on dsl
<s_rr> most dsl companies give you a single dynamic ip
<ElGato> well im getting it from pacific bell
<s_rr> with something like 201.32.41.32.dyn.dsl.isp.com
05:50pm
<ElGato> yeah
<ElGato> well i don't know yet
<ElGato> what kind of music is that song anyway s_r?
<s_rr> it's cocktail rock
<ElGato> ok
<s_rr> water: could i have an object that is an interface to a "storing house" program that stores data in contigious blocks and handles requests for data?
<s_rr> as a high level object?
<water> hmm
<water> yes
<s_rr> but what confuses me is the fact that there _has_ to be data in memory if the app wants to process data
<s_rr> so how could there not be data mapped into memory
<water> i'm not sure if i can think of a good example
<s_rr> argg
<s_rr> i wish i knew how core was going to do that
<water> well, yes, the data is _there_
<water> it's just not organized per object
<water> it would be organized per algorithmic use
<s_rr> ElGato: the ChaOS dev team has been in #tunes for a couple days just idling
<ElGato> s_r: so?
<s_rr> it reminds of mergers
<ElGato> just what are you getting at?
<s_rr> nothing, just rambling
<s_rr> nm
<water> bbiaf
06:00pm
<ElGato> ok
<Beholder> sr: There's another OS dev team here?
<s_rr> Beh: ChaOS
<s_rr> Chaos?
<s_rr> Plundis and Crimson
<Beholder> chaos?
<s_rr> www.chaosdev.org is what abi should have said
<Beholder> hehe
<abi> ChaOS is yet another micro/nano-kernel based os at http://www.chaosdev.org or small, fast and secure, blah blah *snore*
<abi> it has been said that Chaos is yet another micro/nano-kernel based os at http://www.chaosdev.org or small, fast and secure, blah blah *snore*
<abi> hmmm... chaos is yet another micro/nano-kernel based os at http://www.chaosdev.org or small, fast and secure, blah blah *snore*
<abi> bugger all, i dunno, s_rr
<ElGato> he's lagg
<s_rr> abi was lagged
<ElGato> d
<Beholder> Hmm... must mean tunes server is lagged
<ElGato> backspace
<ElGato> ed
<s_rr> ElGato: did you talk about your language to your brother?
<ElGato> yes my old idea
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<ElGato> he said it was dumb :(
<ElGato> my new idea is good though 
<s_rr> heh
<Beholder> ELG:  Wow, he sounds supportive ;)
<s_rr> what's your new idea again?
<ElGato> uh
<ElGato> bb;
<ElGato> bbl
<ElGato> i gotta go help my mom
<ElGato> ok
<ElGato> back
<s_rr> you want to make a language like LISP?
<ElGato> well roughly it's a completely pure (no globalness), SEXP and completely object oriented language
<ElGato> yeah like lisp
<ElGato> SEXP
<s_rr> hmmm
<s_rr> is your brother working on an OS too?
<ElGato> hahahahaha
<s_rr> it must be cool to have a sibling that shares an interest
<ElGato> LOL
<ElGato> rofl
<ElGato> yeah right
<ElGato> he's a graphics programmer
<ElGato> and game programmer
06:10pm
<s_rr> graphics programming is my second interest
<ElGato> hey mabye i'll get a PIII 550
<s_rr> get an alpha
<ElGato> uhhh
<ElGato> no im gonna stick with x86 for now
<s_rr> i'm going to get an alpha
<s_rr> and do all my OS dev on alpha
<s_rr> alpha is a far superior platform
<ElGato> how much are alpha's
<s_rr> unfortunately they are expensive and information about them is not as easy to obtain
<ElGato> im gonna wait for the the intel risc processor to come out
<s_rr> that's going to change _everything_
<s_rr> i wonder what new things they will put in it
<s_rr> new programming aspects
<ElGato> it's way easier to do risc asm than cisc asm
<s_rr> why?
<ElGato> reduced instruction set
<ElGato> fewer but more powerful instructions
<ElGato> not only makes coding easier but optimisation easier
<s_rr> can you point me to a description of any risc instruction set
<ElGato> well...
<ElGato> i read off my brother's sparc assembler manual
<ElGato> i don't know any online references
<ElGato> plus with most risc processors you can use special registers to store function arguments instead of the stack!
<ElGato> that save a shit load of clock sycles
<ElGato> cycles
<s_rr> is accessing the stack slower?
<ElGato> well the stack is part of memory
<ElGato> it's faster to access registers than accessing memory
<s_rr> i'm going to look at alpha asm in the linux source tree
<ElGato> alpha is risc i believe
06:20pm
<s_rr> lsd.linux.cz
<s_rr> 2.3.10
<s_rr> ElGato: do you know what core meant by "high level Objects" used as data storage?
<ElGato> not really
<s_rr> man the net is lagged today
<s_rr> bis   $16,$16,$17
<s_rr>    lda   $16,52($31)
<s_rr> some alpha asm
<s_rr> so f***ing hard to get developer's information on alphas
06:30pm
<ElGato> not like intel
<ElGato> i got 7 intel manuals
<ElGato> s_r: i gotta go.  im going to my friends house and im gonna come onto roger wilco and you can hear my voice
<ElGato> he has a mic
-:- SignOff ElGato: #TUNES (later)
<_QZ> s_rr: do u have an account on bespin?
<s_rr> hell no
<s_rr> i just checked into QZ's base station
<s_rr> no one on
<s_rr> maybe hickserv will be on later
06:40pm
<_QZ> i just put one on bespin
<_QZ> if hick comes back into irc tell him to use it to talk
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<water> wb
<Beam> thanks
<_QZ> im gonna be playing some really big games tonight and it will lag me
<water> so get off the irc!!
<_QZ> water: will do
<water> thanks
<_QZ> :)
<water> we have enough lurkers
-:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Ping timeout for binEng[dialup43-2-25.swipnet.se])
06:50pm
<Beholder> bin: wb 
<s_rr> QZ: what did you put on bespin?
07:00pm
<_QZ> rogerwilco
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<Beholder> hey tcn
<tcn> howdy
<abi> hola, tcn
<s_rr> hey tcn core was just in here for the first time in a while
<Beam> dammit.  it looks like the linux kernel internals are no longer being documented.
<s_rr> Beam: where is some existing linux kernel internals documentation?
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<water> hi
07:10pm
<supergirl> hi
<water> what brings you here, supergirl?
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<supergirl> mr wrong
<water> k
<Beam> there used to be khg.redhat.com, but the system seems to have been taken down, and has stopped being maintained
<Mr_Wrong> Anyone know a good opensource IDE
<Beam> hi supergirl
<supergirl> ; )
<s_rr> all i want to do is see you again don't you know it's true
<ArkA> ye
<supergirl> hi beam
<supergirl> s_rr,....o.k.
<s_rr> water: depeche mode rules
<Mr_Wrong> Besides Emacs, that is
<ArkA> hello
<s_rr> mr_wrong have you tried vi :)
<water> sr: uhh? why'd you say that to _me_?
<s_rr> water: you talk about music to me
<Mr_Wrong> vi hardly counts as an IDE...
<water> sr: oh yeah
<ArkA> how to install yamaha sound card on linux>?
<tcn> mr wrong: RHIDE
<Beam> i got a "old" copy of the kernel hackers guide, and it says that they aren't accepting additions anymore, and that the "device driver" guide superceeds it... but i don't want to write a device driver
<s_rr> i used jed when i had linux installed
<tcn> I guess you just gotta read the source
<s_rr> Beam: buy Linux Kernel Internals
<tcn> don't buy any books about new things, they'll be outdated already
<ArkA> can u give me a link about installation sound card,please?
<tcn> I looked at barnes & nobles the other day, the computer section was full of crap
<s_rr> there are some good books that still pertain to current technology
<Mr_Wrong> tcn:  I imagine that's from RedHat
<s_rr> like Writing your own 32-bit Operating System by Richard A. Burgess
<tcn> mr wrong: no RH is the guy's initials.. Robert Hoehne, i think
<supergirl> bye buys!! you guys are really helpful
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<tcn> it started as a djgpp IDE and got ported to linux
<water> rhide started for djgpp?
<water> weird
<tcn> yeah, for people who were used to borland c
<ArkA> a?
<abi> well, a is not same as values(A)
<ArkA> how to start install guys?
<hcf> abi: forget a
<abi> hcf: I forgot a
<ArkA> ye?
<tcn> install what?
<s_rr> arka: you want to install tunes?
<ArkA> sound card
<tcn> heheh
<tcn> tunes is an operating system that doesn't exist yet
<ArkA> yamahoo shity,probably card-want to install
<s_rr> arka: why did you come here?
<s_rr> this channel is a secret mp3 trading post
<ArkA> u are very smart guys,want to get advices
<ArkA> i gonna keep secret for ever
-:- SignOff ArkA: #TUNES (Leaving)
07:20pm
<Beam> i just looked at the reviews of Linux Kernel Internals.  they didn't seem to be that good.  have you read it?
<s_rr> it skips over a lot
<tcn> just read the kernel itself
<s_rr> but it gives you the general idea
<water> bye
<s_rr> it's not as good as reading the source itself
<water> 2.5 weeks
<tcn> it starts in arch/i386/boot/boot.S
<s_rr> i'd really recommend becoming familiar with the source
<Beam> hmm, maybe that plus the source would be helpfull
<tcn> see ya brian
<Beam> yes, i'm reading the source now :)
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<s_rr> lilo|boot.S-> head.S -> main.c
<s_rr> right?
<Beam> me?  i'm reading linux/mm/*
<s_rr> Beam: want to mod the kernel
<s_rr> i'm thinking of modifying the kernel to support execution of XCOM files
<Beam> yeah
<Beam> hmm, i'm guessing XCOM means something differnt then i'm thinking 
<Beam> (XCOM was a game in the united states from several years back)
<tcn> i had that
<s_rr> i played XCOM
<tcn> abi, xcom?
<abi> xcom is a portable component system at http://xcom.tunes.org
<tcn> it's an object format
<s_rr> i can't understand what makes a man hates another man let me understand
<s_rr> people are people
<s_rr> so why should it be
<Beam> hungh?
<s_rr> singing
<Beam> what are you refering to?
<Beam> oh :)
<s_rr> Beam: so do you understand linux source now?
<s_rr> can you see the general direction of the source?
07:30pm
<Beam> no... i don't get what the varable names refer to
<Beam> i understand what it needs to be doing though
<tcn> mayble you'll understand it by the time everyone's using Tunes or soemthing
<Beam> heh
<tcn> hey, I added graphics to my os this morning
<s_rr> tcn: windowing?
<s_rr> tcn: so is retro close to being finished?
<Beam> there was a source browser, wich lunk varables to the right files wasn't there?
<tcn> initialization, lines, fonts, blits, etc..
<tcn> what's "finished"?
<s_rr> lsd.linux.cz <- source browser
<s_rr> lsd?
<tcn> linux source d...
<s_rr> lsd is the Linux source driver, a browser with linkage for the linux source code (lsd.linux.cz)
<s_rr> lsd?
<abi> rumour has it lsd is the Linux source driver, a browser with linkage for the linux source code (lsd.linux.cz)
<s_rr> lsd is also a hallucinegenic drug
<abi> okay, s_rr.
<s_rr> lsd?
<abi> lsd is the Linux source driver, a browser with linkage for the linux source code (lsd.linux.cz) or a hallucinegenic drug
<tcn> haha
<s_rr> tcn when will you add filesystem support, a console program, a general program support?
<tcn> I bet there's a lot of that where you live
<tcn> what's a console program?
<tcn> (hehe.. Bill Gates at court: "Pissing? what's that?")
<tcn> I have no idea when I'll add what
07:40pm
<tcn> i ought to focus on basic stuff like memory management and sorting/searching
<Beam> lsd works :)
<Beam> thanks s_rr
<tcn> whatever I feel like doing, that's what i do. Maybe i'll add fill triangles and 3D graphics.. or maybe TCP/IP..
<Beholder> bye all
<tcn> see ya
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<Beam> hey, lsd is pretty convient...  that's nicer then my editor :)
<tcn> yeah, cool
<tcn> except it's really lagged
<tcn> i gotta go
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason)
<Beam> is it possible to download the lsd engine, and run it on your local machine, to avoid the lag?
07:50pm
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<ElGato> y0
08:20pm
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<ElGato> sr: go on roger wilco
08:30pm
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* ElGato/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On]
<ElGato> blarg!!!
<Kenn> well let's talk about something
<ElGato> sr: wake up
08:40pm
<Kenn> how is your paper coming along Fare?
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<Kenn> is anyone out there?
<Kenn> no signs of intelligent life-forms captain...
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08:50pm
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<Beam> back
<Beam> you still around s_rr?
09:10pm
<Kaufmann> Shalom!
<Kaufmann> Urgh, DALNet is split
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<Kaufmann> Hi Al
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09:20pm
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<_BC> Hi - server working again i see
<_BC> Can someone tell me what the [other] sites are in the topic line?
<_BC> mirrors?
<_BC> gee thanks.
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09:30pm
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<ElGato> qz!!!
<ElGato> didi you hear me?
<_QZ> no
<ElGato> say something
<ElGato> brb
-:- SignOff ElGato: #TUNES (ElGato has no reason)
10:10pm
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-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein.)
<_QZ> anyone awake?
11:30pm
-:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0719
IRC log ended Mon Jul 19 00:00:00 1999